4th Ed. Arcana Evolved Conversion

[szaijan]

I have been looking at publishing my own AE campaign for about 18 months now. I must admit, however, that the mechanics (at least) of 4th Edition D&D, are much better than those of 3.5, a system I always considered more of a hindrance than a feature to AE play. I am loathe to invest any more time into a 3.5 based system, but I love the races, classes, and world of AE.

The next logical step would then be to create a 4th edition AE campaign setting, and I'd really love to see that taken on by Malhavok, but frankly it's too large a task for me to engage in, especially as I've hardly played 4th edition and have no concept of play balance at levels higher than about 10. A lesser solution would be to simply adopt the combat mechanics and adjudicate push/pull/slide/shift and combat advantage effects into spells and skills on a case by case basis. This would be relatively easy, but the at-will/encounter/daily powers system vs. the 3.5 spells and level progression abilities would be a jarring change for a 4th ed. group looking to try out AE.

IMO, if there is a weakness in AE it is the huge array of spells available to almost every spellcaster. The idea of limiting this so each caster has a smaller array of abilities they need to choose from would improve the uniqueness of casters, IMO. It would also cut down on frazzled looking 10th level Magisters spending the whole evening trying to figure out which spells to cast. The Ritual magic system also suits AE quite well, and will become the repository of the vast majority of the current spell roster.

As an interim, and possibly longer-term solution, I'm thinking of putting up a WIKI page where folks could post conversions and comment on the submissions of others. The idea would be to eventually build a set of 4th Ed. AE conversion rules.

Does anyone know if this is already being attempted? I can't find any information suggesting Malhavok will do an official product of this sort. Does anyone know otherwise.

Any suggestions of how to pull this off smoothly would be greatly appreciated.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

I can only say that I am working on some kind of Arcana Evolved conversion, and I might post up some tidbits in the future. Especially since I don't expect to get this ever finished or so, it might be nice for others to have a starting point or some random ideas thrown around.

(Let's face it - if someone ever gets into tinkering in this stuff, he will never be willing to accept the rules from others until he has modified them a bit. )

 

[Ruin Explorer]

I have to admit, I was looking at AE myself last night and thinking about this. The AE races and classes certainly look like they'd all convert over pretty well.

 

[Dr. Strangemonkey]

I'd support such a project.

I think you could do a rough conversion pretty simply. The biggest load to shoulder under that strategy would be coming up with the races.

 

[Voadam]

Mostly the setting works fine if you can figure out giants and such

Warmain = Fighter
Unfettered = Rogue
Champion = Paladin? Warlord?
Magister (or whatever they are called) = ~Wizard or Warlock
Witch = Wizard or Warlock
Human = Human
Dracha are they called? = dragonborn
Mojh = Tieflings?
Giant = Human stats, described big?

Mage blade = multiclass spellcaster

Others don't fit so well like greenbond and cleric or the monk types or that group mind skill class.

 

[JediSoth]

According to Monte Cook, he has no plans to convert Arcana Evolved to 4E, nor does he support such an endeavor: see here.

So, if you decide to work on converting AE to 4E it will likely forever remain a fan project. Some of the folks over at OK -- Your Turn have taken their conversion conversations off the message boards so as to not fill the AE boards with their discussion. You might want to contact them if you're looking for collaborators.

JediSoth

 

[szaijan]

Hmmmm. Personally, I think the races will be easy, and should be designed from scratch. Evolved and racial levels would need a whole new system created for them, and would likely be represented as feats and new types of multi-class feats. That parts problematic. Replacement levels would need a similar treatment, being represented as replacement powers, or feats, or possibly as Paragon paths or replacement Paragon powers.

In truth, my preference would be to design all the classes from scratch. One of the best features of AE is that as you read each class, so many of their powers are unique and cool that you go "I'd enjoy playing that class!" I'd rather do the extra work to make sure the feel of each remains intact than try to get away with making them more generic, in the manner of the D&D PHB classes. For example, Warmains are more robust than ordinary D&D Fighters. This is really a class feature that would be represented in hit points and healing surges. How do you balance for that, if at all? Should balance with existing D&D classes even be a consideration? If so, it's only because play balance will be hard to get right without lots of play-testing, so basing the new class powers on existing 4th ed. powers allows leveraging of all the play-testing WotC did.

For a quick, workable conversion though, your suggestions certainly work. A few more thoughts on the classes:

Magister could be a Wizard or a Warlock.
Warmain could be a Fighter or a Warlord.
Unfettered could be a Rogue or a Ranger.

The above assume that the AE feats are all converted and some of the cooler class features would replace the D&D 4th ed. class features. In truth, I'd be tempted to allow the Warmain to select from the more physical abilities of Fighters and Warlords, Unfettered abilities from Rogue and Ranger, Ritual Warriors... you'd pretty much need to design from scratch. They're like Warlord/Warmain/Rogues. You might even accomplish this through use of the multi-class feats. You could just replace Unfettered with Rangers and Rogues and let the player choose. Same with Warmains replaced by Fighters and Warlords. In both cases, though, you lose some of the cool flavor of AE.

Paladin -> Champion would require a lot of tailoring to the templates laid out in AE. I'd probably just redesign the powers from scratch.

Witch is much cooler in AE than the 4th ed. Warlock, IMO. You could use Warlock as the basis, but you'd have to allow some kind of power swap for powers specific to the type of Witch. Again, you'd be making almost a whole new power roster.

Greenbond really has no equivalent. You could base them on Clerics, but realistically you'd need to create scratch powers or wait for the Druid to be published.

Runethanes and Totem Warriors are fairly unique and probably justify a whole new class in each case.

Oathsworn are clearly Monks, which again have not been published yet. New class.

Even more unique are the Akashics. They would be closest to Warlords or Rogues I suppose, would need their own powers list, and I would likely remove some of the class features for free multi-class feats, including allowing them to have more than one. You'd have to develop the rules for the Akashic memory, both in terms of knowledge skills, feats, and possibly aping other class' powers. Temporary multi-class feats, anyone? Free Jack-of-Trades feat, and Utility powers that enhance skills. Really, 4th ed. should suit these guys well.

 

[szaijan]

According to Monte Cook, he has no plans to convert Arcana Evolved to 4E, nor does he support such an endeavor...<SNIP>
JediSoth

Thanks. That was what I was looking for. Perhaps I should just make my own conversion and keep it relatively covert, then. I assumed he would welcome fan work on such a project, but if WotC is going to go RIAA on us, I guess it should all be kept as in-house rules.

 

[Qwillion]

AE limited licence, OGL and GSL.

I have been looking at publishing my own AE campaign for about 18 months now. I must admit, however, that the mechanics (at least) of 4th Edition D&D, are much better than those of 3.5, a system I always considered more of a hindrance than a feature to AE play. I am loathe to invest any more time into a 3.5 based system, but I love the races, classes, and world of AE.

Just Fyi

Monte Cook's Arcana Evolved Requirse a seperate limited licencing agrement with monte cook. These are individual to each product published. They are not for a line of books.

Example Rite Publishing (my company) has to apply for a licence each time we produce a product such as Veiled Denizens, Mytical Monstrosites, Items Evolved Oaths, Items Evovled Rituals, each adventure in the Rituals of Choice Adventure Path.

Also it requires the use of the OGL, as I recall the GSL specifically prohibits a company from producing OGL and GSL

(it bans the company, not even a single product from ever using both, and bans a company who uses the GSL from ever using the GSL again if they ever publish again under the OGL).

So legally you cannot publish (for profit) a 4e version of Arcana Evolved. Trust me I thought long and hard about this in referance to my compnay.

Also Monte has said no, and he is the person I would want to do that conversion.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

I am not surprised that an "official" or commercial conversion will be impossible. I would only care for such a conversion if it was actually made by Monte, I think. But fan-made projects I like. You can always steel good ideas for your own game then.

As far as I see, converting the classes is not exactly easy (aside from the fact that 4E classes with all their powers are harder to build).

Some ideas:
Magister = Wizard. There is really no need to create a new Magister - the Wizard is already using Implements. I would only add the Swordstaff to the available list of weapons.
Warmain = Fighter. No real need to adjust the Two Handed Weapon Fighter.

Greenbond: Greenbonds might work best as a Leader-like class. But they could also be Controller. Maybe time for a new power source, the "Green"?

Witches: Witches sometimes match well to Warlocks, but sometimes also well to Wizards. I tend to think that maybe, instead of creating a Witch class, I would create powers and feats that fit the Witch powers.

Mage-Blade: Waiting for the Arcana Defender (Swordmage, FR?)

Akashic: The warlord might be a good start. Maybe just add some Akashic flavored powers (or "reskin" some existing ones).

Oathsworn: Waiting for the 4E Monk? Or should this be done differently? It might be interesting to make the Defenders instead of Strikers. (Basically the question is. Do their Oaths focus more on defending something, or defeating something, or something else entirely?)

Champion: Paladin. Replace the Channel Divinity with something like "Call Upon the Cause".

Unfettered: Rogue and Ranger work both well to cover this.

Totem Warrior: Totem Warriors seem to be some kind of Striker class. Maybe use the Ranger as basis, and add totem-specific powers. It could also be a Hybrid like class (depending on your Totem you're Striker or Defender)

Champion, Totem Warrior and Oathsworn could all three get a new Power Source, maybe "Devotion"? Or it could just be called divine.

An interesting alternative approach might be to unify all spells, similar to Arcana Evolved, and have a generic "magic" power source. This would lead to inherent "hybridization" of spellcasters, and might not be a good idea. But it could also be interesting.