4th Ed Grapple

[Plane Sailing]

Presumably they must have a different kind of mechanic in mind for two additional situations

a) Something small hanging on to someone. How does a stirge do it? What if a person wants to grab hold of a giant or dragon and be dragged along with it?

b) Something big grabbing someone. What if you are two or more size categories larger than your target? A man grabbing a cat, a dragon grabbing a man - what do you do in those circumstances?

Food for thought, eh?

Cheers

 

[Li Shenron]

This is from the Quick Play Rules that was put together by someone in the Raiders of Oakhurst thread:



I can't guarantee the accuracy of this, but it looks good to me.

It looks much better than the 3e rule.

Interesting thing, from that excerpts it looks like every round the grappler must make another check (and use another action) to "renew" the grapple, which represents holding the grapple.

That, and the fact that the grappled target can also spend an action to break free during his own turn, together with the fact that BAB doesn't apply to grapple checks anymore, may mean that grapple in 4e isn't as deadly as it was in 3e, which IMHO is a good thing.

Added bonus: this rule is easily portable to 3e

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Presumably they must have a different kind of mechanic in mind for two additional situations

a) Something small hanging on to someone. How does a stirge do it? What if a person wants to grab hold of a giant or dragon and be dragged along with it?

b) Something big grabbing someone. What if you are two or more size categories larger than your target? A man grabbing a cat, a dragon grabbing a man - what do you do in those circumstances?

Food for thought, eh?

Cheers

a) seems to be the classic "I want to climb on the monster and attack it from there". I hope there is finally a mechanic for it. Or at least some guideline on how to judge this effect. (I'd be happy with "Athletics vs Reflex as attack action to gain combat advantage". Save Ends or Strength vs Fortitude to negate)
b) I think the grapple mechanic already works for that. Man grabs cat, cat is immobile, but still quite angry and certainly won't retract its claws... (Prattchetts Corrolary to Schroedinger's Cat: Cat in Box might be dead, alive, or very angry for being put in box!)

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

It looks much better than the 3e rule.

Interesting thing, from that excerpts it looks like every round the grappler must make another check (and use another action) to "renew" the grapple, which represents holding the grapple.

That, and the fact that the grappled target can also spend an action to break free during his own turn, together with the fact that BAB doesn't apply to grapple checks anymore, may mean that grapple in 4e isn't as deadly as it was in 3e, which IMHO is a good thing.

Interesting question might be wether size bonus still matter. I hope not, since that's one of the worst offenders in 3E. Also note that "BAB" in 4E is what you get for all checks 1/2 your level. So in a way, it will still apply to grapple, but since any possible defense against it will also use this bonus, you get even ground (assuming equal levels).

Added bonus: this rule is easily portable to 3e

Good catch.

 

[Li Shenron]

Also note that "BAB" in 4E is what you get for all checks 1/2 your level. So in a way, it will still apply to grapple, but since any possible defense against it will also use this bonus, you get even ground (assuming equal levels).

IMO the problem in 3e was that a low-BAB character like a Wizard was too vulnerable to grapple from a high-BAB opponent, especially at mid-high levels: that made grappling the best anti-caster tactic, but it's terribly boring to me and has an awful look.

This is instead not that bad in 4e because the difference in BAB is probably a flat +2 at any level.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

IMO the problem in 3e was that a low-BAB character like a Wizard was too vulnerable to grapple from a high-BAB opponent, especially at mid-high levels: that made grappling the best anti-caster tactic, but it's terribly boring to me and has an awful look.

This is instead not that bad in 4e because the difference in BAB is probably a flat +2 at any level.

Yes. The increasing gap between "good" and "bad" is what works so badly. It's already a problem with "normal" combat, but the fact that many grappling monsters also get a considerable size bonus breaks it. If nothing short of a natural 20 allows you to succeed in a more or less regular combat situation, something is wrong.

 

[hong]

Yes. The increasing gap between "good" and "bad" is what works so badly. It's already a problem with "normal" combat, but the fact that many grappling monsters also get a considerable size bonus breaks it. If nothing short of a natural 20 allows you to succeed in a more or less regular combat situation, something is wrong.

Apropos of nothing, that's why smart wizards should always have dim door prepped....

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Apropos of nothing, that's why smart wizards should always have dim door prepped....

Indeed. That's what my spellcasters do. (Clerics use Freedom of Movement)
But didn't you ban them all?

 

[hong]

Yes, yes I did. But not anymore! WotC has kicked all that wacky stuff upstairs to the paragon tier, where it belongs!

Although one side-effect is that I now want to start a campaign at the paragon tier....

 

[Protagonist]

a) seems to be the classic "I want to climb on the monster and attack it from there". I hope there is finally a mechanic for it. Or at least some guideline on how to judge this effect. (I'd be happy with "Athletics vs Reflex as attack action to gain combat advantage". Save Ends or Strength vs Fortitude to negate)

There is hope (emphasis mine):

The last fight had them all battling a six-headed hydra, which might have been an easy fight had the rogue not latched on to the hydras back. The hydra, seeking to rid itself of this pesky elven rogue , submerged in a deep underground pool and began making its way through an underwater tunnel.

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