4th ed, the Good & the Bad?

  1. NO MORE LEVEL DRAIN - Great. Always hated it. Too much bookkeeping for too little effect.
  2. NO MORE ABILITY DRAIN - Good. See Item 1
  3. NO MORE ETHICAL ALIGNMENTS - About friggin' time. Alignment is one of the most miss-used and ranted-on parts of D&D, and its effect on mechanics has always been a questionable leap for me.
  4. SNEAK ATTACK ON ANYTHING - Note that "anything" is something we don't know to be true yet. But I like the idea of Rogues being able to do their thing against undead and constructs - just not all and every one of them
  5. FASTER GAME MECHANICS & NPC CREATION - Great. DM'ing is hectic enough with story planning and everything, being able to more quickly throw in encounters is a good thing. Any NPC's that need fleshing out, you can flesh out.
  6. NO MORE EXCESSIVE AMOUNTS OF MAGIC ITEMS - If done well, tremendous. The Christmas Tree is a D&D'ism I can certainly do without
  7. NO MORE (or less) VANCIAN CASTING - *Cheers* I was a big fan of the Sorcerer in 3rd Edition, and I can only cheer this on. Low level mages having two spells worth their while and having to go through multiple encounters per day was one of my big grievances with D&D, and this is another step in the right direction.
  8. NO MORE SPELL SCHOOLS / FOCUS ITEMS - I'm holding off till we hear more about the implementation of the implements (yeah, lame, I know), but from what I hear, this is good. Specialist wizards always were two things: weak, and not much of a specialist at all.
  9. SKILL SYSTEM REVAMP - From what we've heard, sounds good. It's never made much sense to me that someone who could jump 6 feet up in the air (so to speak), and climb the Mount Everest with ease (so to speak), still would sink to the bottom of a lake because he didn't take swim. Too many skills -> sillyness.
  10. BASIC RACES CHANGES - *shrugs* The half-orc gave some roleplaying potential, but in my experience - and without some serious homebrewing - gnomes never served except for comic characters, which don't seem to fit the new setting. Also, Tieflings and Dragonborn have potential.
  11. Racial Pantheons getting the boot - Good. You can implement this in a manner of your choosing (reinstate a few old ones and use them as aspects, or some such), but racist gods never made much sense to me.
  12. Playtested less then previous edition - *Boing* That's the sound of a jump to conclusions.
  13. Elimination of Prestige Classes - The Paths mechanic looks to be a potentially better implementation of this, but that remains to be seen. I'm hopeful, really; can't get much worse than the potential for munchkinism present in PRC's.
  14. Effort to actually balance feats - Good. Feats should remain meaningful, but in 3.x feats could be ranked from "way too good" all the way down to "not even if I got it for free".
 

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I have to ask:

To those who vigorously welcome more than half the changes 4Ed seems to be ushering in...

Why were you playing D&D in the first place when there are other FRPGs out there that have so many of the features you're looking for?
 

what don't people like about the Vancian system, btw...

- only recovery options after 8 hours of sleep
- too much mechanic importance on school, and not enough on things like description (fire, death etc)
- spell levels not in step with class levels

in fact what do you like?

- built spells
- idea of spellbooks (extended to runestones, prayer beads etc)
- Wizards suffer penalty for wearing armor (but dislike spell resistance)
- no explict magical progression
- bad stacking mechanic for different knowledge of magic
 

Dannyalcatraz said:
To those who vigorously welcome more than half the changes 4Ed seems to be ushering in...

Why were you playing D&D in the first place when there are other FRPGs out there that have so many of the features you're looking for?
Hard as hell to find players period, much less find ones that know systems beyond D&D. I'm envious of the people who have managed to play all those systems!

Almost all gamers are familiar with some iteration of D&D.

Of the Fantasy RPGs that I know, most are either too complex (HERO) or Too Simplistic and gritty (GURPS). D&D operates as a nice medium.
 
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Dannyalcatraz said:
I have to ask:

To those who vigorously welcome more than half the changes 4Ed seems to be ushering in...

Why were you playing D&D in the first place when there are other FRPGs out there that have so many of the features you're looking for?

Because they're not D&D.
 

- spell levels not in step with class levels

I had heard that spell levels will track with class levels in 4Ed...THAT is one of the best things I've heard about it. It is one of the things that has always bogged down the understanding of players new to the game...much like the Str stat's unique progression pre-3.X.

IOW, the genius of simplicity rears its pretty head once again!

Because they're not D&D.

Because its the internet and I can't judge your body language...

One could easily argue that the number and character of the changes will make 4Ed D&D in name only, so that's not a real response.
 

I'll point out that the Per-Day, Per Encounter and At Will is still somewhat Vancian. It's not spell points, it's not spell pools, it's still 'Slots used'.
 

I noticed that most of the arguments in support of keeping ethical alignments dealt with moral quandaries. Since we know the latter are still in the game, I don't think you guys need to be worrying. Also, we don't know that ethical alignments are gone, but it does seem that way.

As for ability drains and level drains, not only were they annoying on a bookkeeping level, but the latter could cause major balance problems. The easiest way to drop a fighter in 3E was to drain his or her mental abilities, and the easiest way to drop a wizard was to drain his or her mental abilities. I saw this as being sort of counter intuitive. It does make a lot of sense, but I always saw the ability damage attacks and spells as ways to weaken your opponents' effectiveness, not drop them entirely; that's what HP damage was for. And for poisons, I think slowly ticking away a player's hit points will scare him or her just as much as damaging one of his or her ability scores.

I think rogues being able to sneak attack [everything?] leaves a lot less logical inconsistency than the current system where they are unable to sneak attack large swaths of monsters, many of which with obvious weak points. Also, remember that HP are definitely an abstract in 4E; there is no discussion over it as there was in previous editions. Because of this, it becomes much more easy to see how a rogue can sneak attack a whole larger variety of targets.

As for the races and class changes, I can see why people get upset about it because of flavor. It is a change in "core" D&D flavor. On the other hand, the logic that it wouldn't be "realistic" to have these races able to move freely about the world is a little weak. For one thing, the obvious assumption is that these are known and fairly common races, so they're not going to strike the average fantasy townsfolk as a horrible monster. Also, if we're going to take real world country bumpkins as the measuring stick for our fantasy country bumpkins, shouldn't they hate anything not of the same race as them. I mean if skin color can cause such ire, shouldn't differently shaped ears, very different proportions, and a tendency to have either a whole hell of a lot of facial hair or absolutely none at all logically end up with someone saying, "Jethro, get a rope"?

And while the core assumptions include a distinct change in flavor, I don't believe you have to change your own flavor to match if you want to still include Dragonborn or Tieflings or whatever. What I mean is that you can keep these races as rare, mysterious and potentially hated by common folk of the world. Drizzt and Viconia from the BG games are good illustrations of how this can be done. (I know, I'm sorry I'm using frikking Drow as examples of how to include "evil" races. I'm even less creative than the 4E designers. ;) ) Drizzt earns his way in the world with his actions. Because he has proven, time and time again, that he is definitely not evil, he is now welcomed throughout the North and in a number of other locales. Viconia, on the other hand is through and through evil (and a total b*tch; talk about "kiss me; diss me"), but she finds herself able to travel relatively freely on the surface when she's in the party because she's either adventuring with a group of heroes or a group of people to frikking BA for Joe Dalesman to mess with. Both of these characters come from an uncommon or downright rare race on the surface, but they're uncommon people; they're adventurers!

For the most part, I agree with everything else in the OP.
 

Dannyalcatraz said:
I have to ask:

To those who vigorously welcome more than half the changes 4Ed seems to be ushering in...

Why were you playing D&D in the first place when there are other FRPGs out there that have so many of the features you're looking for?

1) You have to be introduced to and learn the system.

2) You have to be able to find other gamers. It's hard enough to find DnD gamers, even harder to find people who want to play something else. Note that this also makes #1 quite difficult.

PeterWeller said:
I noticed that most of the arguments in support of keeping ethical alignments dealt with moral quandaries. Since we know the latter are still in the game, I don't think you guys need to be worrying. Also, we don't know that ethical alignments are gone, but it does seem that way.

I've found explanations for law vs chaos to always be weaker than good vs evil. Maybe WotC figured they couldn't come up with good explanations for the ethical side and dropped it. I, for one, am tired of "I can't do this because I'm lawful" or "crazy chaotic PC".
 

(Psi)SeveredHead said:
1)
I've found explanations for law vs chaos to always be weaker than good vs evil. Maybe WotC figured they couldn't come up with good explanations for the ethical side and dropped it. I, for one, am tired of "I can't do this because I'm lawful" or "crazy chaotic PC".

It doesn't help that the ethical spectrum has always felt secondary to the moral one. For example, Paladins have been discouraged from adventuring with evil characters (when not downright disallowed) but not chaotic ones.

I have to ask:

To those who vigorously welcome more than half the changes 4Ed seems to be ushering in...

Why were you playing D&D in the first place when there are other FRPGs out there that have so many of the features you're looking for?

I still liked D&D more than other systems I tried.
 

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