4th ed, the Good & the Bad?

[JoeGKushner]

1. Playtested less then previous edition - *Boing* That's the sound of a jump to conclusions.\

"And as regards the comparison between the amount of playtesting that went on with the 3E launch and the amount for 4E:

OK yes when you say External playtesting 3e likely got more external testing. The jump from 2nd to 3e was massive. This jump is big but not that big."

I based that statement off the 'cover' newspage.

 

[Doug McCrae]

Why were you playing D&D in the first place when there are other FRPGs out there that have so many of the features you're looking for?

Because they also have lots of features I'm not looking for, like dice pools and pointless complexity. And don't have things I do want, like character classes, levels and detailed tactically interesting combat.

 

[Sir Sebastian Hardin]

I've found explanations for law vs chaos to always be weaker than good vs evil. Maybe WotC figured they couldn't come up with good explanations for the ethical side and dropped it.

I've read somewhere something like "Most Paladins are lawful or good (or both)..."

 

[Badkarmaboy]

Because its the internet and I can't judge your body language...

One could easily argue that the number and character of the changes will make 4Ed D&D in name only, so that's not a real response.

One COULD argue that, yes. We could argue a lot of things, but that's all we'd do...argue.

D&D changed drastically from 1E to 3E, did that make it D&D in "name only"?

BTW, stating that I don't play other systems because they're not D&D IS a real response. If you don't find it to be the most well thought out or well supported response...

::shrugs::

(did that help with my body language?)

 

[Lanefan]

Thanks to previous posters for generating the lists:

1. NO MORE LEVEL DRAIN - Bad. I'm another old-time viking-helmed RBDM whose players had better expect bad things to happen to their characters, 'cause they will; and levels are fair game.
2. NO MORE (temporary) ABILITY DRAIN - Good. Oddly enough, given what I've just said, temporary ability drain (or enhancement) generates more paperwork headaches than it's worth.
3. NO MORE SAVE-OR-DIE - Bad. It's a dice-based game and random chance is sometimes a biznitch, for both good and bad.
4. NO MORE ETHICAL ALIGNMENTS - Leaning toward bad. I don't mind the idea of an "unaligned" alignment, but I see vast potential for abuse. The DM should just assign the alignment based on the character's actions.
5. SNEAK ATTACK ON ANYTHING - Leaning toward bad. Sometimes, Rogues (and all characters, for that matter) just gotta suck it up and admit they can't help out very much in a given situation.
6. FASTER GAME MECHANICS - Jury's out. Verdict comes in once we see how much realism gets sacrificed on the altar of efficiency, and how efficient it all really turns out to be.
7. FASTER (N)PC CREATION - Very Good. (as long as I'm allowed to pretend point-buy does not exist...)
8. NO MORE EXCESSIVE AMOUNTS OF MAGIC ITEMS - Good. That said, I don't mind PCs finding lots of magic provided it is both risky to use and fragile...easy come, easy go.
9. NO MORE (or less) VANCIAN CASTING - Jury's out. I'm very dubious about per-encounter abilities in general, but I despise spell pre-memorization, so let's see what they come up with.
10. NO MORE SPELL SCHOOLS - Good. Excellent if Illusionist and Necromancer get their own base classes.
11. FOCUS ITEMS - Jury's out. Verdict comes in once we see how they work.
12. SKILL SYSTEM REVAMP - Leaning toward good. The simpler, the better; rating becomes excellent if "skills" (gather info, intimidate, etc.) that replace role-play are toned down or eliminated as well.
13. BASIC RACES CHANGES - Leaning toward bad. Gnomes I can take or leave, and I'm neutral to the elf changes; but dragonborn and tieflings as base races are a big step in a non-traditional direction I'm not sure the game wants to go. D+D has become a game of tradition; if one tires of the traditions there are many other games out there one can try, safe in knowledge that traditional D+D will always be there.
14. RACIAL PANTHEONS GETTING THE BOOT - Very Bad. The races' cultures are largely defined by their pantheons. I'd rather see racial pantheons expanded...surely Humans aren't the only race with more than one pantheon. While we're at it, I'd also prefer to see more reference to real-world pantheons e.g. Greek, Roman, Norse, in the game
15. ELIMINATION OF PRESTIGE CLASSES - Very Good. They had gotten completely out of hand in 3e. There needs only to be a section in the DMG instructing DMs how to design their own PrC's as an optional extra, and let people do their own thing to suit their game.
16. EFFORT TO BALANCE FEATS - Jury's out. Verdict comes in once we see if they really are balanced (and balance can be overdone). I also hope we see fewer feats overall; they, like prestige classes, just got out of hand in 3e.
17. PARTY ROLES - DEFENDER, LEADER, ETC. - Jury's out. Verdict comes in once we see how they work and-or whether they really mean anything at all.
18. POINTS OF LIGHT SETTING DESIGN - Good. It trends toward a grittier game.
19. LACK OF BACKWARDS COMPATIBILITY - Bad. And I said the same thing about 3e. See above re: tradition.

Lanefan

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

BTW, stating that I don't play other systems because they're not D&D IS a real response. If you don't find it to be the most well thought out or well supported response...

It seems a bit of a cop-out to me.

There must be something within the game's mechanics, fluff, or players community that attract you beyond the name on the cover.

 

[Incenjucar]

D&D's popularity is largely because of the community, the relative simplicity and honesty of the mechanics (WW has like twenty different words for "character class"), the ease of homebrewing, and the sheer mindshare of it.

Good or bad, if you say "Dungeons and Dragons" people at least have some idea of what you're talking about, considering that, between D&D and LotR, entire careers have been made, all around the world. D&D is a large part of human culture. It's not very -important- on the world scale, but it's part of history.

 

[JoeGKushner]

POINTS OF LIGHT SETTING DESIGN - Good. It trends toward a grittier game.

I'd just like to point out, as others have pointed out to me when I was wondering why Dragonborn and Tielflings wouldn't be shot on sight in a 'POL/Gritty game' that high fantasy games like Final Fantasy VII could be considered Points of Light.

POL is so vaguely defined that it can apply to pretty much anything.

 

[Wormwood]

Why were you playing D&D in the first place when there are other FRPGs out there that have so many of the features you're looking for?

D&D is just one of the many RPGs I play.

I'll admit that single game is perfect, but I think 3.5 has more than it's share of kludgy little rules and irritating design artifacts. So although I still enjoy playing, I definitely see the warts.

4e is bringing D&D more in line with my personal tastes.

Therefore, I should enjoy playing 4e more than 3.5

 

[Midknightsun]

NO MORE LEVEL DRAIN - Good. I always thought it was metagamey in the extreme, and a real PITA to deal with anyway.

NO MORE (temporary) ABILITY DRAIN - Neutral- I really didn't mind ability damage, but I'll hold off and see what they plan to do in its place.

NO MORE SAVE-OR-DIE - Good- nothing sucks more than one bad roll taking you from kicking to kicked-the-bucket.

NO MORE ETHICAL ALIGNMENTS - Neutral- dependent- I always thought the alignment system was a litte too abstract anyway, and subject to far too many arguments.

SNEAK ATTACK ON ANYTHING - Leaning Towards Good- that said, I'm not sure if it would apply to absolutely anything. While i can see the argument for SA some undead and constructs, I have a hard time with incorporeal creatures or oozes being Sneak Attacked

FASTER GAME MECHANICS - Good- if they can deliver

FASTER (N)PC CREATION - Very Good- One of my big gripes about 3.5 was the NPC prep time.

NO MORE EXCESSIVE AMOUNTS OF MAGIC ITEMS - About Time- I am pretty sick of the magic item trade that has taken over the game, and PC's reliance on soooo many items, plus the tragedy of having most players rather have their characters die than lose an item.

NO MORE (or less) VANCIAN CASTING - Neutral/Leaning Toward Good. I'm liking what I'm hearing about 4e's magic system

NO MORE SPELL SCHOOLS - Neutral- waiting to see the results

FOCUS ITEMS - Neutral- Not enough info to go on really

SKILL SYSTEM REVAMP - Good- I always thought there were many skills that were unnecessary, or that could be combined with other skills.

BASIC RACES CHANGES - Neutral- I had no love or hate for the gnome. I actually like the idea of Dragonborn (remind me of Dracha from Arcana Evolved), and Tieflings have been around since 2e.

RACIAL PANTHEONS GETTING THE BOOT - Good- I'd rather not have the clutter of gods needed to address each specific race's needs anyway.

ELIMINATION OF PRESTIGE CLASSES - Good- It was an interesting idea, but poorly executed and so easily abused. I only hope the alternative is better.

EFFORT TO BALANCE FEATS - Good- if they manage to do so

PARTY ROLES - DEFENDER, LEADER, ETC. - Neutral- Stuff that's been unofficially used for years anyway.

POINTS OF LIGHT SETTING DESIGN - Good- I like the feel of those kinds of settings myself

LACK OF BACKWARDS COMPATIBILITY - Neutral- not really concerned. If I wanted to play an older version of D&D, I'll play that version.