4th Edition and the Immortals Handbook

[dante58701]

*Dante bows down before the justice of the corporate mob*

Of course that still doesn't make them right for going ahead with 4th Edition in the first place. Wardragon is simply stating (in perhaps not too diplomatic words) that he doesn't like how 4th Edition is being presented or it's inconvenient timing. At least that's what I gather.

=^.^= Of course liking 4th Edition doesn't exactly make those who like the idea idiots, but it does make them rather ill-informed. We haven't seen enough of 4th Edition to formulate a proper opinion on the mechanics, however...what we have seen has been extremely disappointing.

Especially when one considers that WOTC is taking preorders on material that has not yet been PROPERLY previewed. That portion of 4th Edition is just a corporate scam. They are essentially relying on the reputation of 3.0 and 3.5 to get uninformed consumers to buy a product that has yet to be seen by the consumers as a whole.

What I've been seeing a lot of is this...

Corporate Consumer - "OH MY GOD, THEY HAVE A NEW EDITION CALLED 4TH EDITION!!! I'VE GOTTA BUY IT!!!"

Intelligent Consumer - "Why do they have a new edition? We were just getting used to the last edition."

Corporate Consumer - "I don't know, but it's gonna be awesome!!!"

Intelligent Consumer - "What's so awesome about it?"

Corporate Consumer - "I don't know, I haven't seen it yet, but I bet it's going to be awesome!!!"

Intelligent Consumer - "How do you know if you haven't even seen it yet?"

Corporate Consumer - *crickets echoing throughout the region*

Intelligent Consumer - "That's what I thought."

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Of course that isn't to say that all consumers are like that, but I've been seeing a fairly steady stream of uninformed consumers preordering things without even knowing what they are getting, while the intelligent consumers question everything.

A few happy go lucky advertisements are not going to be enough to sway me into buying 4th Edition, and they shouldn't be enough to sway anyone else either or we could just end up buying a happy piece of crap.

If they want to appeal to consumers they need to stop treating 4th Edition mechanics like they are some sort of almighty secret. Otherwise...people like myself and Wardragon will continue telling people how stupid we think the whole thing is.

 

[Pssthpok]

For all the reasons that UK thinks dante is wrong, I agree, and not just because I always think dante is wrong but because all of what UK has said is my feelings about 3rd in a nutshell.

The answer to people whining about the simplification of 4E should remember this:
"A designer knows he has achieved perfection not when there is nothing left to add, but when there is nothing left to take away."
Antoinè De Saint-Exupéry

 

[dante58701]

http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?p=3878750#post3878750

By the power of Grayskull we have achieved the destruction of D&D.

Antoinè De Saint-Exupéry - An author of children's books, who knew nothing about Dungeons & Dragons and got forever lost while flying a little plane in Europe (most likely due to missing and oversimplified flight information)...not to mention he was lecherous jerk who frequently cheated on his wife...great quote there.

 

[Pssthpok]

...because what he did denies what he said. :\

 

[dante58701]

Anyone can quote anyone, but quoting someone doesn't mean you are quoting something that is actually applicable and true.

 

[Anabstercorian]

Pssthpok, just put Dante on your ignore list. He's not worth your time.

 

[dante58701]

He doesn't want to put me there...because, in spite of what he says. He loves these little power struggles =^.^=

 

[Upper_Krust]

Howdy!

*Dante bows down before the justice of the corporate mob*

Of course that still doesn't make them right for going ahead with 4th Edition in the first place.

So you think its better to stick with a clearly flawed system, than try to address those flaws with a new system. Even though in doing so will both reinvigorate sales for a lot of roleplaying companies, not just WotC.

Wardragon is simply stating (in perhaps not too diplomatic words) that he doesn't like how 4th Edition is being presented or it's inconvenient timing. At least that's what I gather.

If he simply stated his dislike then he wouldn't have almost been banned. He called those designers and anyone interested in 4th Edition "idiots". Furthermore he did so from a position of ignorance (since he had no rational argument to back up his claims). Ergo it was nothing more than slander and defamation of character on his part.

The fact that you can't tell the difference is why you often tread on the same thin ice as WarDragon in this instance.

=^.^= Of course liking 4th Edition doesn't exactly make those who like the idea idiots, but it does make them rather ill-informed.

...because you are somehow better informed than the rest of us? We are all reading the same new here dante.

We haven't seen enough of 4th Edition to formulate a proper opinion on the mechanics, however...what we have seen has been extremely disappointing.

On the contrary, what we have seen so far looks set to address all the flaws of 3E and also bring some new and interesting ideas to the game.

Especially when one considers that WOTC is taking preorders on material that has not yet been PROPERLY previewed.

How dare they *cough...looks over shoulder*.

That portion of 4th Edition is just a corporate scam. They are essentially relying on the reputation of 3.0 and 3.5 to get uninformed consumers to buy a product that has yet to be seen by the consumers as a whole.

The truth of the matter is that pre-ordering is is now intrinsic to almost all business, not just RPGs. Any prospective product up on amazon.com can be preordered.

What I've been seeing a lot of is this...

Corporate Consumer - "OH MY GOD, THEY HAVE A NEW EDITION CALLED 4TH EDITION!!! I'VE GOTTA BUY IT!!!"

Intelligent Consumer - "Why do they have a new edition? We were just getting used to the last edition."

Corporate Consumer - "I don't know, but it's gonna be awesome!!!"

Intelligent Consumer - "What's so awesome about it?"

Corporate Consumer - "I don't know, I haven't seen it yet, but I bet it's going to be awesome!!!"

Intelligent Consumer - "How do you know if you haven't even seen it yet?"

Corporate Consumer - *crickets echoing throughout the region*

Intelligent Consumer - "That's what I thought."

Clearly you have been chatting with a token imbecile.

What we have seen and heard so far sounds promising, it sounds as if they have noted all the flaws of £e and look all set to correct them. They also look like they are adding new material to core D&D rather than a simple retread. All in all, everything so far sounds good.

Of course that isn't to say that all consumers are like that, but I've been seeing a fairly steady stream of uninformed consumers preordering things without even knowing what they are getting, while the intelligent consumers question everything.

But you are not questioning anything, you (and WarDragon) are simply dismissing and condemning.

A few happy go lucky advertisements are not going to be enough to sway me into buying 4th Edition, and they shouldn't be enough to sway anyone else either or we could just end up buying a happy piece of crap.

Based on what I have heard so far I KNOW FOR A FACT I'm buying 4th Edition.

If they want to appeal to consumers they need to stop treating 4th Edition mechanics like they are some sort of almighty secret. Otherwise...people like myself and Wardragon will continue telling people how stupid we think the whole thing is.

Not on ENWorld you won't. So I suggest you curb your enthusiasm on the matter.

 

[dante58701]

So then you encourage censorship of anyone who doesn't like 4th edition?

I'm afraid that if that is the case, then you might as well kick half of Enworld off the forums and label yourself a fascist (not a great way to prove your point and more likely to ruffle a lot of feathers). If that's not the case...then what exactly are you trying to say?

There really is no positive way to express a negative opinion about a product that is so controversial. Plain and simple, there are going to be people who aren't going to like it and you're just going to have to get used to the idea that such people will be just as likely to express their disgust as people who like it are going to express their liking of it.

Not everyone is going to have the same opinion on a product and I was under the impression that Enworld was the kind of place where one could go and express their opinion freely without being moderated by corporate enthusiasm and greed.

 

[Ltheb Silverfrond]

I think it is far too early to jump to conclusions about 4E. Unless any of us have inside information (fat chance) I doubt any of us can more than guess what 4E will be like. Judging from the leaked info from the Playtest groups, I can honestly say that I don't really have any expectations of 4E beyond the current status quo. If it is fun, fixes the problems 3E faced, and still feels like D&D to me, I am all for it! Otherwise, I can probably just adapt 3E to 4E's changes. Either way, 4E improves roleplaying games for myself, and my gaming group, even if we don't play it right away. (Biggest factor here - 3E stuff cannot be converted, or so they say)

But right now, until they release official information regarding 4E, I hold to the opinion that those currently writing 4E know what they are doing, and are trying to create the best game possible. Even if it doesn't sound like they are, in the end, it will work out. I would be greatly surprised if a large company like Hasbro would allow 4E to wreck D&D.