4th Edition Bard

[saric]

Hi Saric! I'm an italian player and I translated yuor wonderful work in my language. Can I post it in my blog (with all the credits of course)?

I'm plaing the bard in the Keep of the shadowfell and it seems to be very balance whit the other class in the core manual.

Thank you for this class

Yes you can, and if you don't mind could you post a link to the blog?

I like the idea of this class, but the powers are all far above and beyond the Core class abilities. I believe the Bard should be the Jack of all Trades and Master of none.
As written, this bard is the Jack of all Trades.... and better at it than the other guys.


One of my players is looking to use this class, so I suggested some toning down of the abilities he is looking to use. I post them here for input and help making this class one that isn't the best man at the party.

REad here for a short summation of what the problems I see in the class:

Wow... ouch..

I am still kinda new at the balance of 4e, but there are a number of things in this class that just jump out at me.

Inciting Strike: At will attack that deal damage and grants Temp hp

If you haven't read the rest of the thread I've stated the difference between a cleric's sacred flame and this power at least twice. A cleric can do this at range, and the ally can gain grant temp hp or a save.

Critical Strike, Bard 1 Encounter
1[w]+mod, all allies within 3 gain +2 to hit target and one ally w/in 5 can spend a healing surge
Vs
Lions Roar, Warlord 7 Encounter
2[W]+mod, you or one ally w/in 5 can spend a healing surge

This one was an oversight, it should just be a +2 to attack rolls against the target rather than adding the healing surge.

Accelerated Strike, Bard 1 Daily
3[w]+ mod and allies w/in 5 can shift as minor for remainder of encounter
Vs
Brute Strike, Fighter 1 Daily
3[W] + mod

Wrong class to be comparing the bard to. Also if I recall correctly, brute strike = reliable which means it never is used up on a miss.

For a more effective comparison try the warlord. All 3 of its level 1 daily attacks deal 3 [w] damage.

Raging Pulse, Bard 6 Daily Utility
Burst 5, all allies w/ range gain temp hp, -1 to AC and +1 to attacks, damage, and will Def until end of encounter.
Vs
Hallowed Circle, Paladin 5 Daily
Burst 3, creates zone where allies gain +1 bonus to all defenses. Zone last until end of encounter or until dispelled.

Again wrong level, wrong class to be comparing the bard to.

A cleric's level 2 utility power called shield of faith grants a +2 to ac for all allies. A cleric's level 2 utility power called bless grants a +1 bonus to all attack rolls for allies within the burst. Therefore, granting a +1 to attack rolls is akin to a level 2 utility. Add +1 damage and +1 will defense. Subtract a -1 to ac. Add temp hp and I'd say you'd have a moderately balanced power. If anything, perhaps a cutback on the penalty and some of the other additions might be in order.

These are the ones that were obviously 'proud nails'. I didn't go digging into the higher level abilities. This bard class is cool.. IMHO too cool. It has burst effects, boost effects, major healing effects, and some of the heaviest hitting weapon attacks in the game. Basically it’s a better X than X is, with the possible exception of the Striker classes.

Bards should be cool. Just for the record though, your claim of "heavy" hitting attacks is a poor reason to be worried about. The warlord (a leader) gets high weapon damage rolls on his attacks comparable to fighters, you might want to check it out.

At Wills
Inciting Strike
Hit: 1[W] + Dex mod and mark the target. Allies gain +2 additional damage to melee attacks against the marked target.

Marking is the hallmark of a defender. The cleric gets a whopping total of one power that marks the other being a paragon class feature.

Wern't you the one saying earlier that the bard seems to be cherry picking abilities from other classes when you're suggesting the exact same thing?
Your suggestion is akin to an underpowered cleric's healing strike.

Improvised Jab
Hit: 1[W]
Effect: Select one ally within 5. target grants combat advantage to that allies melee attacks until the start of your next turn

Warning Yell
Chr vs Will
Hit 1D8 + Chr mod. Select one ally that is adjacent to the target. That ally gains +2 to defenses from attacks from the target until the start of your next turn.

Again, where are you getting this from? This is what it says...

Hit: 1d8+ Charisma modifier thunder damage and one ally within 5 squares of you can make a saving throw. 2d8 + Charisma modifier at 21st level.

Encounter
Distracting Shout
Hit: 1D8 + Chr
Change last line. Allies basic attack gains the int bonus to only damage

See the cleric's divine glow. 1d8 blast to enemies and +2 bonus to allies attack rolls.

Distracting shout only targets a single opponent. 1d8 = loss of damage already compared to divine glows potential of a maximum of 9 targets.

Divine glow grants a +2 bonus to attack rolls to allies within the area. Your proposition only grants a bonus to damage on a single attack granted by distracting shout. Sounds like a semi-stronger warlords "commander's strike" at range to me.

Iron Thunder Horn
Hit 1D10 + Chr Mod and target is knocked prone

See cleric's command. Dazed until the end of your next turn. = combat advantage for all your allies and you (no way to get rid of it) It doesn't deal damage though, but thats because you can knock the target prone or slide it a couple of squares away.

See the cleric's Daunting light 2d10 and grants combat advantage to a single ally. However it is an effect, which means it happens regardless of a hit or miss. My version of Ironthunder horn does not have that luxury.

Also bear in mind, the prone condition can be negated by a move action, so unless you're constantly readying actions or delaying to use this power, it isn't that powerful (especially if you have many ranged attackers in your party since you take a -2 penalty to ranged attack rolls against prone opponents and they don't grant combat advantage, thats only for melee attacks).

Deafening Blast
Close Blast 5
Target: Each creature in burst
Attack Chr vs Fort
2D6 + Chr mod, target is deafened (Save ends)
Effect: glass in the area of effect shatters

You made the same mistake I did. But now I see the error in my document. It should be an area burst 2 not a ranged 2, and target all creatures within burst not "blast"

Why would you lower it to 2d6 damage? 3d6 average is 10.5 damage, and deafened is hardly the greatest condition.

See the phb update on wizard's site, powers can already target objects at the dm's discretion.

By the way, if you make the effect destroy all glass in the area of effect, if any ally happens to be in the area, they just lost all their potions...

Dailies:
Immediate Assistance
Trigger: An ally within 5 squares is hit by a melee attack
Attack: Chr vs Will
Hit 2D6 + Chr mod
Effect: Target is weakened until the start of your next turn.

Sonic Weapon
Daily Arcane*Thunder*weapon Close Blast 3
Standard action Must be wielding a melee weapon
Attack: Chr vs Fort.
Hit: 3[w] + Chr mod and you push the target a number of squares equal to your wisdom mod.
Miss: Half damage

What's wrong with sonic weapon as is? Either way, your suggestion is a close blast 3, = max 9 targets and pushes a number of squares = to wisdom mod? no bard should really have wisdom since their suggested stats are charisma, dex and int.

Oh and it has 3 [w] at ranged. If i were a warlord or cleric I would kill for this.

Sound Burst:
Attack Chr vs Fort
Hit: 2D8 + Chr mod and Dazed (save ends)
Miss: Half Damage
Sustain: Move action. Dazed targets suffer a penalty to their save equal to your Int Mod

I'll give you this one, but the sustain part is not really a good idea. Damage ratio, would have to look at it.

Utilities:
Inspirational Boost
Encounter: Move action Close burst 5
Effect: Allies within 5 squares of you gain temporary hit points equal to 5 + your Chr mod

I'll look at this one again.

Heroism
Effect: Target may make an immediate save to shake off ongoing effects as a free action
Target may spend a healing surge as a free action

I can't find this anywhere in the 2nd release. Maybe i'm just sleepy, but who knows. Either way, a few powers got shuffled around or renamed so i'm unsure about this.

Bardic Music:
Countersong
As written

I actually had changed bardic music awhile back, just never posted the update. Its a feat now rather than a class ability.

Inspire Courage
power bonus to attack only.
Immediate save against a persistant [Fear] effect
Sustain: Move action

did you know that there is 0 encounter powers that are sustained by any class in the phb? The only one I can find is in dragon magazine's Class acts article for the wizard, and that probably was an oversight. Inspire courage remained as is, but is now a minor action applying only to one person, but the fear effect can be removed regardless if it has (save ends) or not.

Fascinating Song
Hit: target is immobilized and cannot take attacks against the Bard until the end of your next turn.
Sustain: Standard Action
Special: The target gains an immediate save against this effect each time it is attacked by you or your ally.

Once again, the sustain. As much as it seems to match the old 3.5 effect of the bard singing over and over again, there are no encounter powers that are sustained. If bardic music was switched to a daily, then maybe. However, it has been changed that it will attack no one for one turn unless attacked.

Inspire Competence:
Select a skill you have training in. Allies within range gain a +2 power bonus to their skill checks for that skill until the end of your next turn or until the end of the skill challenge phase.

I had changed this to a feat, and it applies to all skill checks still. However, thanks for your idea, it applies to everyone's next skill check in a skill challenge.

Healing Hymn
Encounter: Arcane/Healing
Minor Action. Close Burst 5 (10 at 11th level, 15 at 21st level)
Target: You or one ally
Effect: Target gains temporary hit points as if they had spent a healing surge and an additional +1D6.
You can target one additional ally at 7th level, two additional at 14th level, three additional at 21st level, and four additional at 28th level.

While mathematically, temporary hp might equate the same thing in 4th edition. It doesn't, because if your ally is dying, this power is useless. Which means the bard is less effective of a leader than a cleric or warlord. Also, the fact that you added additional targets at the higher levels is very unbalanced. Another thing to point out is that yours does not consume a healing surge which makes it more powerful than a heal, as long as the the targets are conscious. I'm not sure if you omitted the two, three times per encounter clause on purpose or by oversight, but if it still is in, then this power just became extremely powerful due to the fact you can use it more times per encounter.

 

[Primitive Screwhead]

Saric, thanks for the reply.
As I mentioned, I am new at this whole 4e thing.. so it doesn't surprise me if I missed stuff.

I sat down with my player and worked together to get something that I felt more comfortable with and we both agreed was more in the spirit of what we thought a bard should be. The initial results of that are posted in another thread...

I will check back in here later when I have time to review your feedback!

 

[saric]

Saric, thanks for the reply.
As I mentioned, I am new at this whole 4e thing.. so it doesn't surprise me if I missed stuff.

I sat down with my player and worked together to get something that I felt more comfortable with and we both agreed was more in the spirit of what we thought a bard should be. The initial results of that are posted in another thread...

I will check back in here later when I have time to review your feedback!

I edited my post above showing my thoughts on some of your ideas.

Update- September 20, 2008: After some free time I finally managed to glance over the bard again and tweaked it a little bit. Among the changes are addition of armor proficiency (chain), removal of the rapier, and an assortment of critical corrections to power attack types. A few powers changed slightly such as bardic music being streamlined and some of them moving to feats. Thanks again everyone for the feedback.

You can get the new pdf at the following site
http://www.filedropper.com/bardrelease32

 

[Primitive Screwhead]

So it looks like we are both responding to an 'older' version

My current version is posted here

My initial review was based simply on looking at similiar powers in the PHB and did not take into consideration what 4e role the class would fill.

I do want a more 3e'ish feel to the bardic music and want a class that is much more in the support role. Your version is quite the stand-up combantant and does not, IMO, have enough team related powers built in.


A cleric can do this at range, and the ally can gain grant temp hp or a save.
Yup, I missed that in both the thread and in the PHB. My new version has this ability pretty much as is.


Wrong class to be comparing the bard to.
I am not too worried about the role as the action.
Also if I recall correctly, brute strike = reliable
True, which does help. Again, new version has a 3{w} power..


The warlord (a leader) gets high weapon damage rolls on his attacks comparable to fighters, you might want to check it out.
I did, thanks for the push in that direction!

Marking is the hallmark of a defender.
I was looking at the mechanical result, not the role typing. It is easier, IMO, to use a Mark then fiddly one-off penalties. I ended up expanding this abit to split the 'feel' of the two builds.


Wern't you the one saying earlier that the bard seems to be cherry picking abilities from other classes when you're suggesting the exact same thing?
Yup
... my initial impression was more than just cherry picking tho. It was cherry picking then adding something more cool.
Critical Strike, which you admit above as an oversight, was the start.. which made me more critical in my search.

Again, where are you getting this from? This is what it says...
A complete change from your version....



Why would you lower it to 2d6 damage? 3d6 average is 10.5 damage, and deafened is hardly the greatest condition.
I ended up going with your version.


By the way, if you make the effect destroy all glass in the area of effect, if any ally happens to be in the area, they just lost all their potions...
I know!



What's wrong with sonic weapon as is?
A power that provides a touched weapon with an additional 1D6 damage per hit... doesn't limit to the Bard's weapon. Which means with melee weapon powers that hit multiple opponents......


no bard should really have wisdom since their suggested stats are charisma, dex and int.
Copy paste issue...

Oh and it has 3 [w] at ranged. If i were a warlord or cleric I would kill for this.
I ended up not keeping either version.


I'll give you this one, but the sustain part is not really a good idea.
I like the idea of the Bard being able to sustain thunder/sonic type attacks.
Any reason why its a bad idea?


did you know that there is 0 encounter powers that are sustained by any class in the phb?
I changed Bardic Music a bit..well, actually alot... making it really the Bard's main thing to do.

Healing Hymn:
I wanted this to be weaker than the cleric/warlord, more of a 'morale booster' than 'healing', and did scrub the additional uses per encounter...
and then dropped it completely.

I will take a look at your newly posted version. I am glad you were able to steal some ideas back, as I have been stealing many of your ideas {and learning rule balance from you while I am at it! }

Thanks again!

 

[saric]

So it looks like we are both responding to an 'older' version

My current version is posted here

My initial review was based simply on looking at similiar powers in the PHB and did not take into consideration what 4e role the class would fill.

I do want a more 3e'ish feel to the bardic music and want a class that is much more in the support role. Your version is quite the stand-up combantant and does not, IMO, have enough team related powers built in.



By the way, if you make the effect destroy all glass in the area of effect, if any ally happens to be in the area, they just lost all their potions...
I know!

You're evil.



What's wrong with sonic weapon as is?
A power that provides a touched weapon with an additional 1D6 damage per hit... doesn't limit to the Bard's weapon. Which means with melee weapon powers that hit multiple opponents......

Clerics get almost the same thing, its called weapon of the gods -2 ac per hit instead of -2 attack rolls, (granted) I probably have to tweak my version slightly. -2 to attack rolls > -2 ac.

no bard should really have wisdom since their suggested stats are charisma, dex and int.
Copy paste issue...

Gotcha. It happens to me quite a bit.

Oh and it has 3 [w] at ranged. If i were a warlord or cleric I would kill for this.
I ended up not keeping either version.


I'll give you this one, but the sustain part is not really a good idea.
I like the idea of the Bard being able to sustain thunder/sonic type attacks.
Any reason why its a bad idea?


did you know that there is 0 encounter powers that are sustained by any class in the phb?
I changed Bardic Music a bit..well, actually alot... making it really the Bard's main thing to do.

Healing Hymn:
I wanted this to be weaker than the cleric/warlord, more of a 'morale booster' than 'healing', and did scrub the additional uses per encounter...
and then dropped it completely.

I will take a look at your newly posted version. I am glad you were able to steal some ideas back, as I have been stealing many of your ideas {and learning rule balance from you while I am at it! }

Thanks again!

Well the thing is, I designed the bard to follow in line with the other two classes. I'll admit things are still needing to be panned out. And the reason I didn't put the bard in a pure support role is because frankly, its boring.

In 3rd edition a bard was just that. Started singing, kept on singing, and occasionally cast a spell. Unless you knew what you were doing (and had a few splatbooks to help), you couldn't be an effective melee combatant. The thing was, bardic music took up actions to continue singing (not all the time), and I didn't want to shoehorn the bard into sustaining bardic music every fight. This would be akin to a cleric/paladin in 4th edition sustaining turn undead or any of the other channel divinity powers.

The cleric despite its overpowered nature in 3rd edition could be relegated to a pure support role and did it quite well. Typically at the expense of offense. However, in 4th edition they can now do other things than just heal. Healing and attacking is actually feasible and encouraged. I instilled this sentiment into the current bard. This bard is semi-controller, leader who aids his allies from time to time and a decent melee combatant.

Either way, I thank you for your feedback, since I like to look at different views of the class for better balance. Take it easy.

 

[colemanpalm]

hey saric. just wanted to hop in and say im playing this class with my 4e d and d group and its working out awesome. even though im rocking a spell blade, i can still heal really well, and do decent damage while doing. Just wanted to say thanks for adapting the bard for 4e, since i was disappointed when it was left out.

Thanks a bunch man.

 

[StAlda]

I edited my post above showing my thoughts on some of your ideas.

Update- September 20, 2008: After some free time I finally managed to glance over the bard again and tweaked it a little bit. Among the changes are addition of armor proficiency (chain), removal of the rapier, and an assortment of critical corrections to power attack types. A few powers changed slightly such as bardic music being streamlined and some of them moving to feats. Thanks again everyone for the feedback.

You can get the new pdf at the following site
http://www.filedropper.com/bardrelease32

This link seem to be broken, I'd like to take a look at the lastest version.
Thanks.

 

[setzer]

Wondrous material we have here, congratulations! I may not know much about all of it, but I still want to suggest the following changes to the 1st level of Bards. Hope you can consider them if it may help you improving the Bard class:

Weapon Proficiency: Simple Melee, simple Ranged, shortword, rapier and crossbows. These are easier handling weapons, perfect for bard's use.

Trained Skills: Streetwise (Cha) or History (Int). Choose three other trained skills at the 1st level.

Bardic Knowledge
A bard picks up obscure stories and legends from other bards and people. As a result, a bard knows a little bit about almost everything. The bard learning skills give acess to the following benefits:
- Ritual Casting, as the feat; bards often use they spellcasting abilities to ease the harshness of adventuring.
- +3 power bonus to all Knowledge Skill checks, or +2 power bonus to every untrained Skills checks (choose one at 1st level. Some bards are more action than theory, proving themselves worthy companions in many situations.


Healing Hymn - Bard Feature
You hum or play a musical note that soothes an ally's pain.
Encounter ✦ (Special) Arcane, Healing
Special: You can use this power twice per encounter, but only once per round. At 16th level you can use this power three times per encounter.
Minor Action Close burst 5 (10 at 11th level, 15 at 21st level)
Target: You and each ally in burst
Effect: Every affected creature gains 1d6 + Charisma modifier temporary hit points. In addition, one of the affected creatures can spend a healing surge.

* The amount of additional hit points gained is 2d6 at 11th level, and 3d6 at 21th level.

Also, I suggest the following changes to bardic feats, considering the changes above:

Seeker of the Song [Multiclass Bard]
Prerequisites: Cha 13
Benefit: You gain +2 power bonus to all untrained skill checks.
Once per day, you can use the bard's bardic music class feature. You must choose two musical options, as given to a 1st-level bard.
In addition, you can use a bardic instrument as an implement when using a bard power or a bard paragon path power.

Lingering Melody [Bard]
Prerequisites: Cha 15, Bardic Music class feature
Special: You must be in Bard Heroic Tier to take this feat; in other words, you must be a pure class Bard or a multiclass Bards who have all Multiclass Swap-Power feats in order to fullfill Lingering Melody's prerequisites.
Benefit: You gain one additional use of the bardic music class feature. (Encounter use for pure Bards or daily use for multiclass)

The bard song is the key feature of the bard class, it would be nice having it when multiclassing to a bard. If these changes broke the class equilibrium, please reconsider.

Cheerfully,
Itomon