4th edition: Not happy with the new direction.

[mudlock]

What i think would be a good idea would to have classes as an option for D&D.

A classless system can work, and it works real well for a solo game like Oblivion where you have no teammates. But the biggest thing I like about 4e's classes is the class roles (which it does so much better than any previous edition) and how it's really difficult for one character to do more than one, or maybe two, well.

When I hear someone say they want a classless system, what I hear is someone complaining that their character can't do everything by themselves. And maybe that's not the case (or at least, you don't feel as if that's the case) but that's what it always sounds like to me.

You could do a classless system that still has a strong concept of roles... but then, how is that any different, or any better, than having a strong concept of roles based on classes?

 

[shamsael]

Out of curiosity what makes you say this? I don't remember a lot about the black cover book (and I never owned it) but I thought it was simply just a new cover with nothing changed in the rules?

Or do you mean skills and powers and combat and tactics included?

Like I said, it was an aesthetix change. The interiors were full color with a nice celtic looking knotwork motif and a higher page count largely devoted to having fewer words on a page, making everything a bit easier on the eyes to read and a lot easier to index.

The best examples that come to mind are the diagram from the PHB for the eight schools of magic and e diagram from the DMG for the outer and inner planes. In the original 2e these were crude line drawings, really gloriphied ascii art. In black cover they were beautiful full colour illustrations as you'd expect it to appear if you found it drawn in a mage's grimoir (including a unique arcane sumbol for each school).

 

[Scribble]

Like I said, it was an aesthetix change. The interiors were full color with a nice celtic looking knotwork motif and a higher page count largely devoted to having fewer words on a page, making everything a bit easier on the eyes to read and a lot easier to index.

The best examples that come to mind are the diagram from the PHB for the eight schools of magic and e diagram from the DMG for the outer and inner planes. In the original 2e these were crude line drawings, really gloriphied ascii art. In black cover they were beautiful full colour illustrations as you'd expect it to appear if you found it drawn in a mage's grimoir (including a unique arcane sumbol for each school).

Your description makes me sad I never owned these books!

Also I have a gamer friend who lived in Brooklyn (now he lives in Manhattan) named James. Maybe you know him.

 

[Dannager]

Last time I checked this was the 4th edition discussion forum, not the only talk about 4th edition in a good light forum. I am going to talk about the new direction that 4th edition has gone and why I want the direction to change. If you share the same feelings then that's great, if not then that's great to but don't come here and disrupt the thread just because you think the mod is going to shut it down.

Essentials and the design going forward is not what I want out of D&D. I really don't even know where to start when I try and get someone new to start playing D&D. I don't like Essentials, but I find myself steering people towards the Heroes of ______ books. I started to like the pre-E style of 4th edition but with Essentials and the new direction that has been thrown out the door.

I'm ready for a complete reboot of the game and there are several things I want in that new direction.

I get the distinct impression that this thread is a reaction to getting your previous thread (EDIT: Threads) shut down.

Look, not many people are going to agree with you. It shouldn't surprise you that most 4e fans like 4e, and pretty much no one believes it's going away any time soon. Our focus is primarily on how the current game can be improved, because the community consensus is that there's a ton of room for 4e to grow into, on every level.

So, I mean, we get that you don't like 4e, or Essentials, or whatever. But your credibility frankly takes a heck of a hit when you hang onto thoroughly discredited notions like the idea of 5e being "right around the corner". Trust me, if there was evidence of that, you'd have people agreeing with you en masse. There just isn't.

 

[badula]

I'd say that i don't like some of the essentials books, mostly the classes changes, i do appreciate the monster and the rules compendium.

As a whole imho 4e has pros and cons.
I REALLY appreciate the combat mechanics in 4e, they really do the job smoothly!
I don't like the skill challenges and they should have stressed more all the "storytelling" part!

 

[ForeverSlayer]

A classless system can work, and it works real well for a solo game like Oblivion where you have no teammates. But the biggest thing I like about 4e's classes is the class roles (which it does so much better than any previous edition) and how it's really difficult for one character to do more than one, or maybe two, well.

When I hear someone say they want a classless system, what I hear is someone complaining that their character can't do everything by themselves. And maybe that's not the case (or at least, you don't feel as if that's the case) but that's what it always sounds like to me.

You could do a classless system that still has a strong concept of roles... but then, how is that any different, or any better, than having a strong concept of roles based on classes?

Now I will say there is a difference between doing everything and doing a little bit of everything. I like to have characters who are Jacks of All trades but master of none.

If they can make thousands of powers who are balanced with each other then they can make a classless system. I think the problem is too much focus on actual roles. If all abilities are balanced then roles don't matter because everyone is contributing.

Also I don't want my magic and my martial to feel the same. I want a mechanical difference while keeping the balance.

 

[Scribble]

The issue I have with classless systems is they tend to vary too much in character power level.

You end up with people who essentially figure out the best combos and ultimately build a "standard" set of characters, and then people who just throw some random crap together and end up not being able to keep up.

 

[herrozerro]

to say that the thousands of powers they create are balanced against each other is a bit of a simplification. Powers are also balanced by what class can use them.

hybriding and multiclassing are expensive in 4e, so you might be able to snag a few cool powers but believe you me if all powers were open to all classes it would make 4e quite a different game. probably not very balanced either.

 

[badula]

I like skill based systems, but i recognize they compel the gm much more than a class system when it comes of thinking nice difficult compelling but not sure killing encounters.


also... skill based systems are the paradise of the minmaxers and the hell for the "i don't know well the rules" players!


so basically you have to decide:

balanced fast and easy to set up? go for a class system
Compelling needs a lot of work but you can tailor exactly what you want? skill system

 

[Dannager]

Also I don't want my magic and my martial to feel the same. I want a mechanical difference while keeping the balance.

A) What makes you think they aren't?

B) Why is this important anyway?