4th edition: Not happy with the new direction.

[Dannager]

The effects of powers may vary somewhat, but every class uses the same structure of powers to express those effects - so many at-wills, encounter, and daily powers.

Except when they don't, right?

The mechanics (roll an attack against some defense, hit get one result, miss get another result) are all the same.

Except when they aren't, right?

I mean, mechanically, a class like the Fighter operates wildly differently from a class like the Psion. They are, in practice, almost nothing alike. ForeverSlayer can argue until he goes blue in the face that they feel the same, and I can argue that they are not the same - the difference being that I can support my argument with the rules of the game, and so far ForeverSlayer has brought, "They're the same because they're the same!" to the table.

Furthermore, it strikes me as ridiculous to complain that all the classes use the same power structure in a thread where he is simultaneously railing against the perceived new direction which lets you play classes with different power structures.

I do not see this as even coming close to being a cohesive position. I would be more inclined to give him the benefit of the doubt were I not aware of his recent posting history.

 

[ForeverSlayer]

Except when they don't, right?

Except when they aren't, right?

When you break it down they all do. No matter if it spamming at-will basic attacks or using a daily power, it all comes down to the same thing.

I mean, mechanically, a class like the Fighter operates wildly differently from a class like the Psion. They are, in practice, almost nothing alike. ForeverSlayer can argue until he goes blue in the face that they feel the same, and I can argue that they are not the same - the difference being that I can support my argument with the rules of the game, and so far ForeverSlayer has brought, "They're the same because they're the same!" to the table.

Actually they are the same. Augmented at-wills are identical to encounter powers in execution, just not in delivery. You can actually have all classes uses augmentation and get rid of encounter powers. You have not supported your argument.

Furthermore, it strikes me as ridiculous to complain that all the classes use the same power structure in a thread where he is simultaneously railing against the perceived new direction which lets you play classes with different power structures.

Different power structures? Oh you mean the spamming of at-will basic attacks with a few bonuses stacked on?

I do not see this as even coming close to being a cohesive position. I would be more inclined to give him the benefit of the doubt were I not aware of his recent posting history.

Then please don't post in my thread. It's simple as that.

Read above.

 

[blalien]

Seriously, just give it up. Wizards isn't going to make the game you want. Find another game and go have fun with it. That's the whole point of capitalism.

 

[Dannager]

Except when they don't, right?

Except when they aren't, right?

When you break it down they all do. No matter if it spamming at-will basic attacks or using a daily power, it all comes down to the same thing.

...which is?

Actually they are the same. Augmented at-wills are identical to encounter powers in execution, just not in delivery.

So what you're saying is they're not the same, because they are inherently more flexible than any other power format, yes?

You can actually have all classes uses augmentation and get rid of encounter powers.

You can. But you don't. Which makes the classes not the same.

You have not supported your argument.

Adorable.

Different power structures? Oh you mean the spamming of at-will basic attacks with a few bonuses stacked on?

If that's what you'd prefer to call it. Yes.

We can mull over the details once you've acknowledged that everything is not the same, forever, always. Bring your position back into the realm of reasonable discussion, and we'll talk.

Then please don't post in my thread. It's simple as that.

You get told by a mod that you probably shouldn't post inflammatory anti-4e threads in the 4e board, and you disagree with him and say you should be able to.

Someone posts something that disagrees with you in a thread, and you say he should leave.

That makes sense.

 

[mudbunny]

...which is?

I am going to assume that he is talking about the Roll d20, add modifiers, apply damage and/or special effects base that at will/encounter/daily/utility powers have.

Granted, that comes out of the whole d20 system that D&D uses as its base mechanic, and has used since 3.X.

 

[mudbunny]

Read above.

Could you *please* not place your replies inside the quote, but break up the post that you are replying to? It makes replying to your posts much, much easier.

 

[herrozerro]

I think the disconnect here is that foreverslayer says that since the format is the same it is the same.

While the rest of us say that the formatting has nothing to do with the gameplay and the powers actually are different in play.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Yeah, fundamentally you are right HZ. To me when I'm using all my close/melee weapon powers as a fighter it feels VERY different to me than playing my wizard and using ranged/area powers that are effect based instead of damage based.

Powers are just a mechanical framework. All characters have a race and a class and a level, hit points, etc too. None of those things make them "the same", yet fundamentally every character uses the same basic elements.

If you hate AEDU and 'all classes are the same', this is just a matter of insisting on a specific mechanic being different. The only basis for discussion on these points is game theoretical and no amount of discussing game design theory will make people agree on what they like. At best all we can do is decide that whoever designed 4e had a clear idea of what they were doing, or not.

 

[mudbunny]

I think the disconnect here is that foreverslayer says that since the format is the same it is the same.

While the rest of us say that the formatting has nothing to do with the gameplay and the powers actually are different in play.

If you disconnect all of the fluff (and that includes whether it is a push, pull, etc) from the powers, then it *is* all the same. Roll d20, apply damage/effect.

That being said, I don't think that complaining about the game by completely divorcing one part (fluff) from the other (mechanics) is intellectually honest to be arguing.

 

[FireLance]

I think the disconnect here is that foreverslayer says that since the format is the same it is the same.

While the rest of us say that the formatting has nothing to do with the gameplay and the powers actually are different in play.

Yeah, it's like he's saying that a kobold is the same as Orcus because they both have AC and hit points, and they both make attack rolls.