4th edition: Not happy with the new direction.

[wedgeski]

Guys, can I ask as a favour, one gamer to another, one forum poster to another, one internet dude to another... please, PLEASE can we keep ENW clear of "cool story bro" and "ibtl". I'm begging you.

 

[catastrophic]

Yeah, it's like he's saying that a kobold is the same as Orcus because they both have AC and hit points, and they both make attack rolls.

I dunno, apart from role and such, how different are they? There's a lot of red queen in the level system, the real difference in the tiers is in the stakes of the battles- and it's not as if epic or even paragon has been that good at articulating that.

Oh, and with respect to "classless" D&D, I think we've got to the point where it might be possible to go "classless" and still have a kindasorta balanced game. It's really the next step after multiclassing feats and hybrids: a "classless" class that could potentially take any power from any class. In practice, it might be limited to a small pool of classes which could be expanded by feats, or MAD might be a natural limiter.

Agreed. Classes are built much the same, and even with the current rather dense nature of 4e class and subclass build, it's still pretty straightforward to mvoe powers from one class to another.

TBQH i'd rather class and role were more coherently presented in singular mechanics anyway, rather than the current status quo where class and role are articulated and defined in varying combinations of powers, class traits, feats, and more.

For instance, for me a cool system would be one where each class would be solidly defined by their subtype of their role mechanic- their challenge, their striker boost, ect, possibly with a secondary role mechanic offered through a power source mechanic. Each of these mechanics would be clearly laid out in a single power description, so that people could pick up and play a class without too much trouble.

 

[ForeverSlayer]

There are games which are classless. Some of them even work very very well. 4E just isn't one of them; actually, I don't believe any edition of D&D I've played has been.

I'm not sure that I understand the OP.

I'm not sure if you played 2nd edition but back then there was a book called Skills and Powers and I thought it was awesome. It was essentially classless D&D.

 

[FireLance]

I dunno, apart from role and such, how different are they? There's a lot of red queen in the level system, the real difference in the tiers is in the stakes of the battles- and it's not as if epic or even paragon has been that good at articulating that.

How different they are can be a function of what you focus on. If you're focusing on the format, they are quite similar. If you focus on the numbers, you might even be able to argue that Orcus is "more of the same" compared to a kobold (although I personally think that there is also a qualitative difference to their abilities). If you focus on the fiction, however, there is a world of difference between an ordinary kobold and a demon prince of the Abyss.

 

[ForeverSlayer]

Is this put down necessary?

When people have trouble comprehending something they usually try and turn it around to make it the other person's fault.

 

[ForeverSlayer]

How different they are can be a function of what you focus on. If you're focusing on the format, they are quite similar. If you focus on the numbers, you might even be able to argue that Orcus is "more of the same" compared to a kobold (although I personally think that there is also a qualitative difference to their abilities). If you focus on the fiction, however, there is a world of difference between an ordinary kobold and a demon prince of the Abyss.

If we are focusing on the fiction then there are plenty of game systems that work better than 4th edition. It wouldn't be hard to take a powerful creature from another game and add Orcus' name and story to it.

The fiction is not really the reason I buy D&D instead of another game because I can add the fiction to anything.

 

[Ulorian - Agent of Chaos]

Because the overall mechanic is the same. It's important to me because I want more than just fluff to be the difference between the two.

4th edition doesn't give me what I want.

I haven't agreed with much of anything you've said until this. I think the 4E designers understand this too, which is why the Essentials Martial classes have moved away from AEDU, which is what predominantly makes Martial classes feel like Arcane/Divine classes.

 

[Ulorian - Agent of Chaos]

kitten kaboodle

I try to keep these kinds of grammar/spelling posts to a minimum, but sometimes I just gotta cut loose: kit and kaboodle!

 

[delericho]

Guys, can I ask as a favour, one gamer to another, one forum poster to another, one internet dude to another... please, PLEASE can we keep ENW clear of "cool story bro" and "ibtl". I'm begging you.

Tl;dr

Oh, edit:

 

[DracoSuave]

I'm not sure if you played 2nd edition but back then there was a book called Skills and Powers and I thought it was awesome. It was essentially classless D&D.

It was also the most broken overpowered work to come out for the entirety of second edition.

Skills and Powers is an argument to NOT go classless.