5e Character Guides - why rate all features?

[Yunru]

But your initial argument was that the rating in the guide is useful in itself for determining when to multiclass... That a player could intuit from the rating when to multiclass. Now it appears you agree with that as your argument has shifted from it's a good way to intuit when to multiclass to that exception can be found in the multiclassing section. (implying that it's not a good way for a player to intuit when to multiclass).

The are you smoking?
There being exceptions does not mean that the guides don't serve as good general advice.
That's not how exceptions work.

The guides provide a good way to intuite when to multiclass.

The multiclass section provides exceptions for when and what to multiclass.

If you couldn't intuite from the base guides, the multiclass section wouldn't be a list of exceptions, it'd be a full on guide in it's own right.

 

[FrogReaver]

No? Because again, those are exceptions.
Hell, the fact that they're exceptions proves that they're not normally needed.

So your take is that they do provide meaningful multiclassing info except when there is an exception (when they don't)?

Maybe we should start with how is a guide reader supposed to use the rating information alone to intuit what to do? Oh that's right, in all situations he needs to check the multiclass section for exceptions before he tries to intuit anything from the ratings...

If the ratings were useful for multiclassing he wouldn't need to go find a big list of potential exceptions in another part of the guide before making use of the information.

 

[Yunru]

If the ratings were useful for multiclassing he wouldn't need to go find a big list of potential exceptions in another part of the guide before making use of the information.

Okay, first off gods damn it if quoting on phone isn't hard.

Second, this just proves you don't even know what you're talking about.
"Big list of potential exceptions"?
Name one. Just one.

The multiclass section on all (but the most anally thorough?) guides is a short paragraph per class at best.

 

[FrogReaver]

The are you smoking?
There being exceptions does not mean that the guides don't serve as good general advice.
That's not how exceptions work.

The guides provide a good way to intuite when to multiclass.

The multiclass section provides exceptions for when and what to multiclass.

If you couldn't intuite from the base guides, the multiclass section wouldn't be a list of exceptions, it'd be a full on guide in it's own right.

I mean usually the multiclassing section gives you recommendations for multiclassing and for when to do it. It's basically a guide in it's own right. Especially seeing as how any reader has to come to this section anyways to validate whether some combination is actually good or not.

 

[FrogReaver]

Okay, first off gods damn it if quoting on phone isn't hard.

Second, this just proves you don't even know what you're talking about.
"Big list of potential exceptions"?
Name one. Just one.

The multiclass section on all (but the most anally thorough?) guides is a short paragraph per class at best.

Well if the guide in question doesn't actually explain the "exceptions" then the guide itself isn't going to helpful in putting players on the right track with multiclassing.

 

[Yunru]

I mean usually the multiclassing section gives you recommendations for multiclassing and for when to do it. It's basically a guide in it's own right. Especially seeing as how any reader has to come to this section anyways to validate whether some combination is actually good or not.

Only readers with low system mastery. And unlike you seem to present it, it's np chore to go to the multiclass section and see what to avoid or consider if you lack that system mastery.

And how's this relevant again, anyway?

"The colours aren't relevant on class features you can't choose to get" has already been disproved so you're just moving on to "the fact that exceptions have to be losted is a chore"?

 

[FrogReaver]

Only readers with low system mastery. And unlike you seem to present it, it's np chore to go to the multiclass section and see what to avoid or consider if you lack that system mastery.

And how's this relevant again, anyway?

"The colours aren't relevant on class features you can't choose to get" has already been disproved so you're just moving on to "the fact that exceptions have to be losted is a chore"?

Strawman Alert.... Seriously? That's what your trying to dumb my stance down to?

No! The question currently is whether the color coded ratings of abilities aids in multiclassing decisions. My contention is that it does not because you can take that information as presented and make bad decisions about multiclassing. The complaint has never been that there is a long exception list somewhere else, it's that the exception list elsewhere is proof that the color coded ratings really do a poor job of advising when it comes to multiclassing.

 

[FrogReaver]

Strawman Alert.... Seriously? That's what your trying to dumb my stance down to?

No! The question currently is whether the color coded ratings of abilities aids in multiclassing decisions. My contention is that it does not because you can take that information as presented and make bad decisions about multiclassing. The complaint has never been that there is a long exception list somewhere else, it's that the exception list elsewhere is proof that the color coded ratings really do a poor job of advising when it comes to multiclassing.

Just in case anyone wanted to know why this is important:

Color Coded ability ratings were argued as good for guides because they aid a player in multiclassing. I think that's B.S. and they do no such thing. If I'm right and they don't aid a player in multiclassing then they would appear to serve no purpose as no other potential purpose has been suggested for them.

 

[Yunru]

Strawman Alert.... Seriously? That's what your trying to dumb my stance down to?

No! The question currently is whether the color coded ratings of abilities aids in multiclassing decisions. My contention is that it does not because you can take that information as presented and make bad decisions about multiclassing. The complaint has never been that there is a long exception list somewhere else, it's that the exception list elsewhere is proof that the color coded ratings really do a poor job of advising when it comes to multiclassing.

One the contrary, you're making a couple of false claims:
1: there exists any "long" list of exceptions.
2: There being exceptions means the system doesn't work.

Both of those seem to be critical to your claim. Both are wrong.

 

[FrogReaver]

One the contrary, you're making a couple of false claims:
1: there exists any "long" list of exceptions.
2: There being exceptions means the system doesn't work.

Both of those seem to be critical to your claim. Both are wrong.

1. Since it's already been demonstrated that multiclassing can be led astray by ratings alone (bladeinsger/rogue extra attack example), then if a guide lists no exceptions in the multiclassing section then it's either a flawed guide or one not intended to offer multiclassing advice. In either case, the ratings themselves still are shown to provide bad multiclassing advice.

2. If the goal of a color coded rating system is to allow users to intuit about good multiclassing opportunities then a list of exceptions certainly shows that a player can't use that rating system alone to intuit what is a good or bad multiclassing opportunity.

Looking back I think you can agree with what I'm saying here. I think your point is more akin to, the combination of ratings and exceptions together is a valuable tool to help players make good multiclassing decisions. I tend to agree with that principle as well.

The only potential setback and thing I think left to discuss is whether the exception lists are too large to be enumerated in a guide for this method to work. I've not put enough thought into that at this time to comment.