D&D 5E 5e Monster Stats by Level (not CR)

[dave2008]

I was asking exactly this. so your saying that 4 PCs vs 4 CRs 20 monsters, the PCs have a 50% chance of getting wiped out (or at least forced to retreat)

That is the idea (except level, not CR - no CR's here please!). Really hard to predict at that level without knowing the specifics of a group and the opponents they are against. Heck, 4 PCs vs 4 PCs will give you very different results.

 

[dave2008]

I also consider a 5th level aid pretty par for the course at this level. +20 Hp to 3 creatures, no concentration, 8 hour duration....this is an automatic for any cleric I've seen run.

AID is a fairly weak spell at low levels but it scales remarkably well.

That puts the PCs in range of my chart, so that is good.

 

[NotAYakk]

How are you using 2nd wind each round - this a OneD&D fighter?

2nd wind is once per short rest.

I'd generally advise against BM as your model PC. Fighter is already a higher than typical optimization class, and BM is a top subclass; and non-trivial to describe what optimal play is. (modestly efficient BM is better than most other subclasses).

 

[Quickleaf]

OK, so now that all four classes have been fleshed out a bit (cleric, fighter, rogue, wizard), here is my average PC. IT has a bit more DPR than I assumed, and quite a bit more HP. The cleric healing was a big boost there. Attack and AC both dropped a little. Now, with this information I will update my Monster by Level Chart and post it later.

Any thoughts before I change my chart: @Quickleaf , @NotAYakk , @Matrix Sorcica, @Sword of Spirit, @SlyFlourish, @Horwath, @Stalker0, @FitzTheRuke, @Dax Doomslayer ?

My first thought is the numbers seem high and perhaps optimized a bit to much. Though you could do better. I was thinking about dropping HP and DPR by 10% as an optimization (or lack thereof) factor.

View attachment 369734

I think you're applying the 9th level Mass Heal across all these PCs, and then factoring that into an average-HP-across-all-levels? Maybe someone suggested doing that?

I think that's a glaring mistake inflating HP too much, and I would not do that.

Sorry, I tried to understand your spreadsheet screenshots, but it was a little difficult to make sense of everything. But I'm not the base character optimizer either, being a forever GM.

 

[dave2008]

I think you're applying the 9th level Mass Heal across all these PCs, and then factoring that into an average-HP-across-all-levels? Maybe someone suggested doing that?

I think that's a glaring mistake inflating HP too much, and I would not do that.

Sorry, I tried to understand your spreadsheet screenshots, but it was a little difficult to make sense of everything. But I'm not the base character optimizer either, being a forever GM.

Yes, that is what I did (also correct that it was a suggestion). A figured a cleric should heal and mass heal is the way to go. Is there a reason you think a cleric wouldn't use it?

Or is it just that you think it will inflate monster HP to much?

 

[dave2008]

How are you using 2nd wind each round - this a OneD&D fighter?

2nd wind is once per short rest.

I'd generally advise against BM as your model PC. Fighter is already a higher than typical optimization class, and BM is a top subclass; and non-trivial to describe what optimal play is. (modestly efficient BM is better than most other subclasses).

You can use it twice per the playtest, but you correct that I made a mistake and applied it 3 times. I've corrected it now and it change the average (over all 4 PCs) changed by a whole 2 HP. So not much an issue, but thank you for catching that, always good to make it as correct as possible.

I understand your point about the BM, but I am sticking with it for now. It is my favorite class, so I don't want to drop it!

 

[dave2008]

I think you're applying the 9th level Mass Heal across all these PCs, and then factoring that into an average-HP-across-all-levels? Maybe someone suggested doing that?

I think that's a glaring mistake inflating HP too much, and I would not do that.

Sorry, I tried to understand your spreadsheet screenshots, but it was a little difficult to make sense of everything. But I'm not the base character optimizer either, being a forever GM.

PS - the XP budgets are working much better now.

 

[Quickleaf]

Yes, that is what I did (also correct that it was a suggestion). A figured a cleric should heal and mass heal is the way to go. Is there a reason you think a cleric wouldn't use it?

Or is it just that you think it will inflate monster HP to much?

Again, I'm not sure I'm understanding the character build spreadsheets you've worked on correctly. I'm not used to reading those as I'm not the best in the CharOp space.

But my first thing is – Mass Heal should not be factored into what's happening at Levels 1 to 16 – i.e. the vast majority of the game.

Again, I'm unclear if you're doing an aggregated-all-levels-together HP.... or if you're separating average-HP-by-level where you're just averaging the 4 class builds you've chosen.

Your spreadsheet and reply make me think it's the former (which is problematic), but common sense makes me think it's the latter.

 

[dave2008]

Again, I'm not sure I'm understanding the character build spreadsheets you've worked on correctly. I'm not used to reading those as I'm not the best in the CharOp space.

But my first thing is – Mass Heal should not be factored into what's happening at Levels 1 to 16 – i.e. the vast majority of the game.

Again, I'm unclear if you're doing an aggregated-all-levels-together HP.... or if you're separating average-HP-by-level where you're just averaging the 4 class builds you've chosen.

Your spreadsheet and reply make me think it's the former (which is problematic), but common sense makes me think it's the latter.

First, I am not trying to simulate every level. I've done 1st and 20th and extrapolated between the two. I want a smooth, predictable table. I don't want the bounciness of actual PCs. So specific levels may be off. Hopefully the averages help here. Also, my actual table is also 10% less on HP than the calculated value at level 20. So I'm not use 100% of the healing power of Mass Heal.

My approach was to make a group of 4 classic PCs. I then added up the HP, attack bonus, DPR, and AC of the 4 classes. I took those totals divided them by 4 to get the values for the "average" 20th level PC. Does that make sense?

I do plan to make more average PCs for levels 5, 10, & 15 and see how well my table holds true, but for my current purposes* it works well. It takes time too, so I am not sure when I will get to it.

*I'm working on epic/immortal PCs and monsters, so level 21 and above. If I get level 20 correct - that was my minimum goal. Everything else is extra.

 

[dave2008]

Sorry, I tried to understand your spreadsheet screenshots, but it was a little difficult to make sense of everything. But I'm not the base character optimizer either, being a forever GM.

PS - I have the same problem (forever DM)! It took me way to long to research and make these mildly optimized characters. And to be clear, these are not maximized, people make more powerful builds for sure.