# D&D 5E5e Monster Stats by Level (not CR)

#### NotAYakk

##### Legend
I mean.. for most CR ranges, you can punt on the DMG table and just use:

HP/30 + DPR/12 + (AC-10)/4 + ATK_STAT_BONUS/4 minus 4.

Feed fomerian into that.
149 HP/30 = 5
59 DPR/12 = 5
(14 AC-10)/4 = 1
ATK_STAT (6 and 2 average 4) / 4 = 1

5+5+1+1-4 = 8 CR

That is pretty much the DMG table. The rules for how to deal with low CR situations are, however, distinct; the HP of a CR 1/4 and 1/8 creature is close, but the impact on the output CR even smaller.

For CR over 20 the calculated CR here (CR_0) is too high over 20 by a factor of 2 or 2.5 (I forget).

Now, theory wise, we should swap the linear AC and ATK modifiers for exponential ones. But in theory this can be handled by tweaks in the XP curve, and the assumption that AC/ATK isn't too far off the baseline for a given CR, because the true "threat" of a monster is (Damage output against a PC per round) times (rounds it survives and puts out that damage when attacked).

The blog of holding adds 15 HP, 5 damage, .5 ATK (but includes proficiency) and .5 AC per CR. Fed into my math this is 0.5 + 0.42 + 0.25 = 1.17 per CR.

But at CR 1 the estimated creature has .75 AC + 1 HP + .5 ATK + .83 damage = a calculated CR of -1 in my math. They then scale up by almost a CR in effectiveness per CR (a bitmore), then shave off some at level 8 (about when their excess would have hit a full point).

From this what I suspect the error is that the DMG creatures have "extra" stuff on them. Those that do end up with less HP/Damage/AC/ATK than their level. Blog of holding probably ignored this -- the result is that CR X monsters have lower stats than they should. The brutes (the ones with no special stuff) show up as outliers. What more, brutes (with no special tricks) tend to have higher HP and damage and AC and everything - messing up with the correlation stats the poster is relying on.

My equation gets low CR creatures wrong, but by around CR 4 it is disturbingly reliable.

Giant Hyena. 12 (+.5) AC, 16 (+.75) Str, 10 (+5/6) damage, 45 (+1.5) HP. Total 3.6, but then subtract 4.

Rampage every 3rd turn is worth 3.3 DPR; 0.25. Total 3.85 - 4 = -0.15.

The DMG, however, has the defensive CR 1/4 average with the offensive CR of 2, producing a 1.

If we treat HP below 60 as a 2 and AC under 14 as a 1 and require an ATK STAT of +1, we get a modified formula:

(AC-14)/4 + (HP-60)/30 + (ATK_STAT_BONUS-1)/4 + (DPR-6)/12
where any negative number is treated as 0.

Feed the Hyena in, and the damage of 13.3 and ATK stat of +3 gives it a CR of 1.

Now this is not directly relevant to your plan.

But you can take the vanilla rogue and make a table like this.

For DPR, a dual wielding rogue (two short swords) does 10 damage from weapons. It also sneak attacks; as the sneak attack has 2 chances to land, it deserves an accuracy bonus. Instead of being 3.5 per die, use 4 - this has the nice property of dividing by 2.

So the target DPR is 8 + Level*2.
The target HP for a 12 constitution rogue is 9 + 6 per level after 1. Call it 3 + Level*3 HP.

At level 1 a Rogue has 14 AC. At level 20, a Rogue can be expected to have 17-20 AC (an increase of 3-6 points)
At level 1 a Rogue has +5 to hit. At level 20, a Rogue can be expected to have +11-14 to hit (an increase of 6-9 points)

If we factor out proficiency to hit (I find it often helps), the Rogue goes from Prof+3 to Prof+5-8 (an increase of 2-5 points).

A +4 swing is close enough for both numbers. So baseline ATK bonus is +3+Level/5, and AC is 14+Level/5.

Rogues get other stuff, from their subclass and class, but this gives a baseline set of toys.

A "Kit" might be worth 0.25 a monster. The idea is that you start with a baseline monster, and add "Kits" to customize.

Soldier, Sniper, Support, Brawler, Skirmisher, etc.

We could even downstat the monster a bit so that every monster gets a Kit for free. But I also like the idea of giving a monster both the Solider and Brawler kit.

Elite(X) could be a second subsystem. An Elite(2) monster is "worth" 2 monsters, an Elite(4) is "worth" 4.

#### Quickleaf

##### Legend
I don't know what Mike Shea's maths look like behind the screen, but his guidelines for comparing CR and level looks like this...

A single 1st level PC = one monster of CR 0 to CR 1/4
A single 2nd-4th level PC = one monster whose CR is 1/4 of the PC's level
A single 5th-20th level PC = one monster whose CR is 1/2 of the PC's level

PC LevelMonster CR Approx. Equivalent
10.25
20.5
30.75
41
52.5
63
73.5
84
94.5
105
115.5
126
136.5
147
157.5
168
178.5
189
199.5
2010

Comparing a 4th-level Rogue (Thief) to a CR 1 Spy, Mike Shea's system says that the spy should be a decent challenge. I'll compare their numbers and look at what the DMG maths say (which are suspect at this point, but it's the only official metric I know of).

Rogue has 27 hp, AC 17, DPR 14.5, attack +6 (based on my hypothetical earlier in the thread).

If we try to CR-ify this 4th-level Rogue, its defensive CR = 0.5, and its offensive CR = about 2.5. So it's total CR = about 1.5.

Spy has 27 hp, AC 12, DPR 18, attack +4.

If we run the Spy's numbers through the DMG, its defensive CR = 0.125, and its offensive CR = 2. So its total CR = about 1.06.

Checks out. But...

What about at higher level? Let's compare a 16th-level Rogue (Thief) to a CR 8 Assassin...

Rogue has 109 hp, AC 18, DPR 37.5, attack +10.

If we try to CR-ify this 16th-level Rogue, its defensive CR = 5, and its offensive CR = 7. So its total CR = 6.

Assassin has 78 hp, AC 15, DPR 76 (no surprise, but sneak attack every round), attack +10.

If we run the Assassin's numbers through the DMG, its defensive CR = 2, and its offensive CR = 13. So its total CR = about 7.5.

Not exact but in a close ballpark. I can see stuff at higher level play that all this white room analysis doesn't account for making up the difference.

#### dave2008

##### Legend
I don't know what Mike Shea's maths look like behind the screen, but his guidelines for comparing CR and level looks like this...

A single 1st level PC = one monster of CR 0 to CR 1/4
A single 2nd-4th level PC = one monster whose CR is 1/4 of the PC's level
A single 5th-20th level PC = one monster whose CR is 1/2 of the PC's level

PC LevelMonster CR Approx. Equivalent
10.25
20.5
30.75
41
52.5
63
73.5
84
94.5
105
115.5
126
136.5
147
157.5
168
178.5
189
199.5
2010

Comparing a 4th-level Rogue (Thief) to a CR 1 Spy, Mike Shea's system says that the spy should be a decent challenge. I'll compare their numbers and look at what the DMG maths say (which are suspect at this point, but it's the only official metric I know of).

Rogue has 27 hp, AC 17, DPR 14.5, attack +6 (based on my hypothetical earlier in the thread).

If we try to CR-ify this 4th-level Rogue, its defensive CR = 0.5, and its offensive CR = about 2.5. So it's total CR = about 1.5.

Spy has 27 hp, AC 12, DPR 18, attack +4.

If we run the Spy's numbers through the DMG, its defensive CR = 0.125, and its offensive CR = 2. So its total CR = about 1.06.

Checks out. But...

What about at higher level? Let's compare a 16th-level Rogue (Thief) to a CR 8 Assassin...

Rogue has 109 hp, AC 18, DPR 37.5, attack +10.

If we try to CR-ify this 16th-level Rogue, its defensive CR = 5, and its offensive CR = 7. So its total CR = 6.

Assassin has 78 hp, AC 15, DPR 76 (no surprise, but sneak attack every round), attack +10.

If we run the Assassin's numbers through the DMG, its defensive CR = 2, and its offensive CR = 13. So its total CR = about 7.5.

Not exact but in a close ballpark. I can see stuff at higher level play that all this white room analysis doesn't account for making up the difference.
Interesting, is that from his new book?

#### Quickleaf

##### Legend
Interesting, is that from his new book?
Not sure, I can't keep up with all the publications third party folks are doing. I just spotted it in his recent YouTube video.

#### dave2008

##### Legend
Not sure, I can't keep up with all the publications third party folks are doing. I just spotted it in his recent YouTube video.

View attachment 282814
I feel like that might have been included in the preview for his most recent kickstarter (which I backed), but I can't seem to find where a filed the preview!

#### NotAYakk

##### Legend
What about at higher level? Let's compare a 16th-level Rogue (Thief) to a CR 8 Assassin...

Rogue has 109 hp, AC 18, DPR 37.5, attack +10.
So a 14 constitution Rogue has 16*2 + 16*5 + 3 = 115 HP. 109 is low for a 16th level Rogue, especially one with no feats.

I'll assume Dual Wielding feat with two rapiers and 20 dex. Studded is 18 AC.

So its attack routine is 1d8+5 1d8 (14), and has 2 chances to land 28 damage sneak attack. If we ignore the two chances to land the sneak attak we get 42 DPR, not 37.5, and that is a low estimate (as the 2 chances are significant). Anyhow, +10 to hit.

Defensive roll halves the damage of 1 hit/turn. That is going to be worth at least +25% HP on the conservative side.

CR 6+2 for accuracy is CR 8 offensive
CR 5+1.5 for AC is CR 6.5 defensive
overall CR is 7.25

If we try to CR-ify this 16th-level Rogue, its defensive CR = 5, and its offensive CR = 7. So its total CR = 6.
and this is on a subclass-less rogue. While you did say Thief, you then assumed none of the abilities had any impact on combat.

All of fast hands, use magic device, and advantage on stealth can be significant combat abilities. So a "real CR" that is 1 point higher isn't all that unreasonable.
Assassin has 78 hp, AC 15, DPR 76 (no surprise, but sneak attack every round), attack +10.

If we run the Assassin's numbers through the DMG, its defensive CR = 2, and its offensive CR = 13. So its total CR = about 7.5.

Not exact but in a close ballpark. I can see stuff at higher level play that all this white room analysis doesn't account for making up the difference.
Assassin has 10.5 of sneak attack, 13 of weapon damage, then 24.5*2 poison damage. But the poison damage requires that you hit with a weapon attack, and has a 2nd chance to reduce it with a con save. So we should discount it. If we expect a 40% save chance, the proper discount is 20%.

The sneak attack damage should be boosted (as the assassin has 2 attempts). The ambush ability matters as well. We'll do without boosting from these two for now (we also neglected the sneak attack boost on the thief).

DPR is 62.7, not 76. Attack is +6, not +10.

Offensive CR of 10, but -0.5 from inaccuracy.
Defensive CR of 1, +1 from AC. Evasion isn't large enough for us to worry about.

(9.5+2)/2 is 5.75. It has an actual CR of 8, probably because we neglected the Assassinate ability; what DM doesn't have the assassin surprise the first round?

If we add that in, its damage is basically doubled round 1. Using the 3 round rule, this boosts its DPR by 33% to 83.4, or CR 13. It has an accuracy boost round 1, but not round 2/3: call that +1 to hit. So 12.5 offensive CR.

(12.5+2)/2 is 7.25 CR. The MM gives it an 8, which is close.

#### Quickleaf

##### Legend
Yeah, for sure there are different approaches for estimating CR.

@dave2008 Thought I'd bring this to your attention, from this recent livestream for Forge of Foes... second column is Equivalent Character Level...

edit: this table can be found in their free preview pdf.

Last edited:

#### dave2008

##### Legend
Yeah, for sure there are different approaches for estimating CR.

@dave2008 Thought I'd bring this to your attention, from this recent livestream for Forge of Foes... second column is Equivalent Character Level...

edit: this table can be found in their free preview pdf.

View attachment 282960
Yes, I have the PDF, it is form the Kickstarter. I took a look at after the video you posted. However, I haven't had a chance to break it down and see how accurate it is with regard to my goal of one monster of the same level of a PC being a "challenge." Thank you for keeping me posted. At some point I will get to the real number crunching!

#### Matrix Sorcica

##### Hero
The Forge of Foes CR to level is pretty close to Giffy's from a glance. FoF has CR5 equal to level 10, Giffy has it equal to level 11. And Giffy's math (afaik) is based on blog of holding/monster on a business card (I think - of course Giffy also doesn't care about resistances and such).

#### Matrix Sorcica

##### Hero
And really looking forward to Forge of Foes. Bummed that international shipping killed the hardcover for me

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