D&D 5E 5e Monster Stats by Level (not CR)

[Quickleaf]

Update Table. Small reduction in HP and DPR and added XP column since that is different too (OP has been updated):

View attachment 369273

I appreciate the effort you're investing in this project, Dave! It's nice to see you here. The numbers look solid.

You've probably done this a ton, but I thought I'd evaluate some classic monsters with your matrix... At first blush looks like there's big differences in the XP awards for monsters between what the MM says and your method?

Kobold (CR 1/8, XP 25; prof +2, AC 12, hp 5, atk +4, dmg 4) = Level 1 (XP 100)

Orc (CR 1/2, XP 100; prof +2, AC 13, hp 15, atk +5, dmg 9) = Level 2 (XP 200)

Bugbear (CR 1, XP 200; prof +2, AC 16, hp 27, atk +4, dmg =11+7/3=13) = Level 3 (1,350 XP)

Note: I think it's meant to follow similar bump ups/downs as DMG page 274? Except that since there's no offensive/defensive CR calculation, the starting point on your table is sort of an "average" of Hit Points and Damage? For example, this puts the Bugbear between Level 3 (dmg) and Level 4 (hp). Its AC 16 is two points higher than 14, so it's bumped to Level 4, but then its Attack bonus is only +4, so it's bumped back down to Level 3. Is that using your matrix correctly?

Ogre (CR 2, XP 450; prof +2, AC 11, hp 59, atk +6, dmg 13) = Level 4 (2,000 XP)

Note: 59 HP indicates Level 8, while 13 dmg indicates Level 3, so the ogre starts between Levels 5 & 6. Its AC 11 bumps it down two steps to Level 3 or 4. Knowing the ogre is tougher than a bugbear, I estimate its maybe Level 4.

Displacer Beast (CR 3, XP 700; prof +2, AC 13+4 displacement=17, hp 85, atk +6, dmg 22) = Level 6 (3,300 XP)

Note: 85 hp is level 11, while 22 dmg is level 5, so it starts at Level 8 but its proficiency bonus is low - not sure how that affects following the matrix, so I'm assuming that bumps it down one step to Level 7. Then it gets bumped down one more step for its Attack Bonus +6 being two less than +8, which makes it Level 6 maybe.

Troll (CR 5, XP 1,500; prof +3, AC 15, hp 84+(3*10)=114, atk +7, dmg 29) = Level 8 (4,600 XP)

Note: 114 hp is level 14, while 29 damage is level 6, so the troll starts at Level 10. However, its AC bumps it down one step to Level 9, and its Attack Bonus bumps it down one more step to Level 8. I think.

Am I understanding how your system would interpret these existing monsters correctly? And IF I am (big IF), what accounts for the XP difference?

 

[dave2008]

I appreciate the effort you're investing in this project, Dave! It's nice to see you here. The numbers look solid.

You've probably done this a ton, but I thought I'd evaluate some classic monsters with your matrix... At first blush looks like there's big differences in the XP awards for monsters between what the MM says and your method?

Kobold (CR 1/8, XP 25; prof +2, AC 12, hp 5, atk +4, dmg 4) = Level 1 (XP 100)

Orc (CR 1/2, XP 100; prof +2, AC 13, hp 15, atk +5, dmg 9) = Level 2 (XP 200)

Bugbear (CR 1, XP 200; prof +2, AC 16, hp 27, atk +4, dmg =11+7/3=13) = Level 3 (1,350 XP)

Note: I think it's meant to follow similar bump ups/downs as DMG page 274? Except that since there's no offensive/defensive CR calculation, the starting point on your table is sort of an "average" of Hit Points and Damage? For example, this puts the Bugbear between Level 3 (dmg) and Level 4 (hp). Its AC 16 is two points higher than 14, so it's bumped to Level 4, but then its Attack bonus is only +4, so it's bumped back down to Level 3. Is that using your matrix correctly?

Ogre (CR 2, XP 450; prof +2, AC 11, hp 59, atk +6, dmg 13) = Level 4 (2,000 XP)

Note: 59 HP indicates Level 8, while 13 dmg indicates Level 3, so the ogre starts between Levels 5 & 6. Its AC 11 bumps it down two steps to Level 3 or 4. Knowing the ogre is tougher than a bugbear, I estimate its maybe Level 4.

Displacer Beast (CR 3, XP 700; prof +2, AC 13+4 displacement=17, hp 85, atk +6, dmg 22) = Level 6 (3,300 XP)

Note: 85 hp is level 11, while 22 dmg is level 5, so it starts at Level 8 but its proficiency bonus is low - not sure how that affects following the matrix, so I'm assuming that bumps it down one step to Level 7. Then it gets bumped down one more step for its Attack Bonus +6 being two less than +8, which makes it Level 6 maybe.

Troll (CR 5, XP 1,500; prof +3, AC 15, hp 84+(3*10)=114, atk +7, dmg 29) = Level 8 (4,600 XP)

Note: 114 hp is level 14, while 29 damage is level 6, so the troll starts at Level 10. However, its AC bumps it down one step to Level 9, and its Attack Bonus bumps it down one more step to Level 8. I think.

Am I understanding how your system would interpret these existing monsters correctly? And IF I am (big IF), what accounts for the XP difference?

I think you have got how it is intended to work. I've only done a few monsters myself, but it has been interesting to see where things fall. Definitely need to do some tweaking. One of those being - XP!

My first pass at XP was just a WAG starting at level 20. I have a more recent attempt that is closer to the official XP numbers. However, I don't like how the official XP scales and I'm fighting against my desire to have things scale well and make sense vs making it match up more closely with the "official" xp numbers.

This issue is particularly noticeable at low CR/level. When monsters get above CR 5 or so they convert fairly well, below that not so much. Also, anything below CR 1 would probably convert to Level 1 minion or grunt which have 1/4 and 1/2 XP respectively. Still quite a few kinks to work out.

So a CR 6 Bloodfray Giant (2,300 XP) converts to about level 8 monster (2,400XP).* That is close enough form me. Below CR 6 things don't look so good!

*In my current XP table, not the one shared here (yet).

Just an FYI, I got back to this project because I am exploring my epic / immortals rules again and it was helpful in that process to rebuild the foundation so to speak. So I was first and foremost concerned with over level 20 play and am trying to go back and make this work for level 1-20.

 

[Quickleaf]

I think you have got how it is intended to work. I've only done a few monsters myself, but it has been interesting to see where things fall. Definitely need to do some tweaking. One of those being - XP!

My first pass at XP was just a WAG starting at level 20. I have a more recent attempt that is closer to the official XP numbers. However, I don't like how the official XP scales and I'm fighting against my desire to have things scale well and make sense vs making it match up more closely with the "official" xp numbers.

This issue is particularly noticeable at low CR/level. When monsters get above CR 5 or so they convert fairly well, below that not so much. Also, anything below CR 1 would probably convert to Level 1 minion or grunt which have 1/4 and 1/2 XP respectively. Still quite a few kinks to work out.

So a CR 6 Bloodfray Giant (2,300 XP) converts to about level 8 monster (2,400XP).* That is close enough form me. Below CR 6 things don't look so good!

*In my current XP table, not the one shared here (yet).

Just an FYI, I got back to this project because I am exploring my epic / immortals rules again and it was helpful in that process to rebuild the foundation so to speak. So I was first and foremost concerned with over level 20 play and am trying to go back and make this work for level 1-20.

It does seem like your approach works great in the mid-ranges, but might break down a little in terms of XP (not necessarily the actual numbers) at low-levels, and possibly in terms of low Hit Points for dragons/beholders/solo monsters at higher-levels. But it sounds like you're borrowing the 4e minion/standard/elite/solo break down in some capacity, so might be a non-issue.

 

[dave2008]

Your Rogue doesn't use Uncanny Dodge; that is a pile of mitigation.

Your fighter ... doesn't seem to use second wind? 149.5 HP plus (con bonus)*20.

If it is a "3 rounds between short rests", the fighter gets 5 actions and 3 bonus actions over 3 rounds; so 20 attacks plus 3 bonus actions. Maybe a PAM for 23 attacks? At 20 attacks that is ~19 damage per attack, at 23 ~16.5. Those are strange numbers; too low for -5/+10, high for most other cases.

PAM staff+3+shield duelist with a 25 strength giant belt? +7 str, +3 enchant, +2 duelist is 1d6+12 and 1d4+12 damage; slightly low.

PAM GWF halbard+3 GWF with 25 strength giant belt? +7 str, +3 enchant, +10 GWF, 1d10/1d4 damage for 25.5/22.5 damage.

Naive duelist rapier+3 fighter with 20 dex and a +3 sword does 1d8+10(14.5) per swing, gets 20 swings over 3 rounds for 97 DPR at +14 to hit.

Naive GWM Flaming GS fighter with 25 strength (belt) does 4d6+17(32.3) per swing, gets 20 swings over 3 rounds 215 DPR at +8 to hit (plus bonus crit hits)

Naive oathbow SS fighter with 20 dex does 1d8+3d6+15(30) per attack, gets 20 shots over 3 rounds (200 DPR) at +8 to hit (with advantage).

Daily resources need to take into account hit dice. You appear to only care about encounter resources? That really warps stuff.

A naive rogue is 12d6+11 damage (53) per round. Booming blade ups this to 60s. XBE/SS based hits 78.

Not sure how you hit 81. Did you take into account accuracy somehow?

An more optimized rogue with a scimiltar of speed and booming blade does 22d6+14+3d8 = 104.5 DPR at +13 accuracy.

If you are burning daily resources, meteor swarm (140 massive aoe), delayed blast fireball (ally throws it, cast before the fight) of 20d6 (70 aoe), distintegrate(s) (75), dark star (44 damage per round, 1 action to start off), summon fiend (70 damage per round concentration at level 8 slot).

An active fiend (70 DPR: 4 attacks at 1d12+11 damage) or similar, meteor swarm (280 damage; assume you can get 2 targets (heh)), disintegrate x2 (150) is a level 20 wizard 3-round combo at 213 DPR without any real optimization. Of course you burnt 2 6th an 8th and a 9th level slot, and not very efficiently (those damage spells are often not the most powerful options).

A Cleric who casts an 8th level Spirit Guardians does 36 AOE damage every round. Add in a 6th level Spiritual Weapon (18.5 DPR), one toll the dead (26), and a flame strike (28 aoe). (36*3*2 + 18.5*2 + 26 + 28*2)/3 is 112 DPR without even being creative (assumes at least 2 targets for aoes, but doesn't give credit for save-for-half).

And you instead account for the clerics healing, each 6th level slot is 70 HP, and a 9th level slot is "everyone is full HP", which have insane impact. Let alone the impact of "mass cure wounds" or the like (74 healed+22.5 per slot level over 5).

The amount of HP a cleric adds to the PC budget is large at higher levels (in an encounter).

...

Maybe pick a specific class you want to emulate and a specific level of optimization. Then model that a bit better.

Like we could model a "soldier" to be a "champion fighter who uses a longsword and shield, duelist, sentinal, plate, buffs str and con". Medium-optimized.

Feats:
Starts with 16 str/14 con. ASI: +4 str, +6 con (5), Sentinal, Other
Fighting Style: Interception (11.5 damage per round soaked), Duelist.

HP budget: 6*20 + 4 (base) + 5*20 (con) + 1d10+20 (second wind) + 20 (Survivor) + 11.5*3 interception
=~ 304 soaked over 3 rounds.
Damage budget (+3 longsword): 1d8+10 per swing, 20 swings over 3 rounds = 97 DPR at +14 ATK.
AC: +2 Plate, +3 Shield (25)
3 uses of Indomidable (worth ???)
18-20 crit range (worth 4.5 "perfect accuracy" DPR).

This is a concrete, actual PC fighter that isn't especially optimized.

You can use 4e inspired "roles" to make archtypes like this for each of:
Soldier/Brute (maybe 2, maybe 1).
Skimisher (close based, duck in duck out, relatively fragile)
Artillery (ranged based, relatively fragile, damage based)
Controller (like Artillery but messes with people instead of raw damage)

actual, concrete PCs, not super optimized, to base your monsters off of.

@NotAYakk, I have read your comments and there is a lot of good advice. Some of which I already implemented, I just haven't shown my work so to speak. However, I am deficient when it comes to building PCs. My group typically plays in a low magic setting and mostly picks fighters. I've only played with two groups for all of 5e. So I haven't seen a lot of builds in action.

So I was hoping you could give me hand as you seem to know PCs much better than I do. I am happy to crunch the numbers, but do you think you could give me some suggested PC builds? What I am looking for are 4 PCs: cleric, fighter, rogue, and wizard. They have access to feats and magic items. By lvl 20 they should have 2 uncommon, 2 rare, and 2 very rare magic items.

Can you suggest subclasses and rough builds and equipment of a mildly optimized PC for each class? I am not look for PC good in combat (HP, DPR, healing, etc.) but not the best. So if they got a belt of giant strength it would be a frost or fire giant belt, not a storm giant belt. Does that make sense? Is that something you could help with? Maybe I could entice you with a $25 chipotle giftcard?!

 

[Sword of Spirit]

That is exactly what I mean though. It is hard because a system like 5e is so variable in PC power per level based on how a PC is configured, equipped, and played.

Well I can totally get behind that. I'd love an easy way to tell how to convert and compare the relative power of statblocks. Makes it easier to have true monster characters.

 

[Matrix Sorcica]

Can you tell how this differs from the work Giffyglyph has already done and I've directed you towards multiple times? I'm trying to understand.
To me, it looks very similar, for example he too has CR5 = level 9 monster.

 

[dave2008]

Can you tell how this differs from the work Giffyglyph has already done and I've directed you towards multiple times? I'm trying to understand.
To me, it looks very similar, for example he too has CR5 = level 9 monster.

It has been a while since I looked at their work. I don't remember them explaining how they developed the method, but I do remember having some issues with the implementation. So this is something I need to do for myself for my own satisfaction and understanding. Their work is amazing and more thorough than I am ever likely to get, but without showing their work I can't really tell you the difference or trust how they got the numbers they did. For example:

Monster by Level Comparison (at level 20)

Method	Proficiency	Armor Class	Hit Points	Attack	DPR	Save DC
Giffyglyph	+6	22	226	+12	51	22
Dave2008	+6	22	160	+14	100	22

That is quite a difference in HP and DPR and makes me trust their work even less. Their work seems to bring back the problem that 4e and 5e monsters have of too much HP and to little DPR. I'm hoping to correct that. If I had to guess they based their numbers on the WotC Monsters, and not PCs. Though I could be wrong.

Finally, I am getting back into this again because I am working on my epic / immortals rules again and I needed to secure the foundation (so to speak) to understand my work at higher levels. So I doubt Giffy's work goes up to level 160 (with tier modifiers layered of that)! So I kinda need to figure it out for myself!

Also, the CR 5-6 monsters I am getting in my system are level 8, not 9

EDIT: FYI, I just checked and Giffy converts a CR 5 standard monster to level 11-12, that is quite a bit different from what I am getting currently - but who know where I will end up!

EDIT 2: I just realized he has many different versions of his work out there. They have a different numbers too. The above was taken from their website (the Grimoire), but the Monster Maker PDF (also on their website) has the numbers below (and I found another PDF of the their Monster Maker that had different numbers still):

 

[Matrix Sorcica]

If I had to guess they based their numbers on the WotC Monsters, and not PCs

They did. Thanks for the explanation.

 

[Matrix Sorcica]

Also, the CR 5-6 monsters I am getting in my system are level 8, not 9

EDIT: FYI, I just checked and Giffy converts a CR 5 standard monster to level 11-12, that is quite a bit different from what I am getting currently - but who know where I will end up!

I've must have misremembered, or gotten it confused with Forge of Foes etc. Sorry 'bout that

 

[dave2008]

They did. Thanks for the explanation.

OK, that makes sense - really different than what I am trying to do (though we may end up in similar places).

I am creating an prototypical PC (with many assumptions) that is the basis for creating a monster to be an equal match for that PC at each level. So a 1 v 1 combat between a monster and PC of the same level is 50/50 on who wins. You can't get there if you are converting the DMG monster CR guidelines to levels (IMO).