5E on the horizon?

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4E (iirc) had been in production as early as 2005, so the timing seems about right for 5E. I'd be surprised if it wasn't at least being tested. I wouldn't be surprised at all if some of the newer 4E options were tests of 5E ideas much in the same way that things like Book of 9 Swords, the 3rd Edition Knight, and Reserve feats were tests of 4E ideas.
 

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Unless I'm mistaken, we're only talking about one person - Bill Slaviscek - and it may be that if they want to take a different direction and are unhappy with how 4E has done then it makes sense for him to be gone.

Tuft covered it above, but, yes, if Bill had been the only one out, then it could signal a new direction.
 

If I had to bet money I'd say 2014 but I wouldn't be surprised to see it come out in 2013. I also wouldn't be surprised to see them take a similar approach to Pathfinder's alpha and beta testing, with an Alpha edition coming out in some form or another starting in late 2012, Beta in 2013, and 5E in 2014.

I strongly suspect 2014, to coincide with the 40th anniversary of D&D. I also think brainstorming and 'blue-sky' design work has already begun, and that Mearls' columns are part of that process, trying to get a sense for what the fans want. Similar things happened in the lead-up to 2E and 3E. Rumor has it that Mearls has been tapped to move into Slavicsek's position, so we'll see what comes of that.

This may be wishful thinking on my part, but I think the grid aspect of things may be seriously downplayed, now that the miniatures line is dead.
 

I can see an ever evolving DDI based game. New ideas are incorporated, rules are modified, approaches and emphasis are shifted, and the game slowly morphs from month to month, year to year, and a new edition is never actually developed. 10 years from now D&D will look a bit different than it does now - but it won't be called 5E.

The existence of DDI does make this theoretically possible, but I remain skeptical. You can only morph a game so far with incremental updates and patches; the system core remains set in stone.

Suppose for the sake of argument that the designers conclude, "Healing surges were a mistake. We should get rid of them." The only plausible way to do that is a new edition. Can you imagine how much work it would be to strip them out of all the existing rules? And can you imagine the outcry if they did?

DDI does raise the possibility that WotC might preserve legacy editions of D&D--they can keep 4E online even as they release 5E. After all, why sacrifice the DDI revenue from 4E holdouts? Still, I doubt they would continue to actively support 4E, for all the same reasons they don't support 3E now.
 

DDI does raise the possibility that WotC might preserve legacy editions of D&D--they can keep 4E online even as they release 5E. After all, why sacrifice the DDI revenue from 4E holdouts? Still, I doubt they would continue to actively support 4E, for all the same reasons they don't support 3E now.

I think they are at least one more edition cycle from having the expertise to pull it off, but ...

If your focus is to get as many people as possible to subscribe, and stay subscribed, and books are only seen as a way to make marginal profits while encouraging those subscriptions--then a fragmented set of customers is only a problem to the extent that it costs you tangible resources for your subscribed services.

At some point, your fragmented customer base actually becomes very much a strength. You've got diversity in your products and customer base, and are thus better able to handle setbacks. It is navigating from where they are now to such a point that is difficult, not the nature of the end goal.
 

...why the need to take potshots at them right off the top?

Who is taking "potshots"? I'm not making any qualitative judgements about 4E as a game - I like it, play it, and prefer to other editions of D&D, including Pathfinder. But I think it is almost a self-evident truth that 4E is not as successful as WotC would have liked it to be, both economically speaking but also in terms of the community, which is fractured in a way that it has never been.

With some of the things Mearls has been talking about lately, and DDI being the future of D&D, I don't think new editions are a necessity or inevitable.

I can see an ever evolving DDI based game. New ideas are incorporated, rules are modified, approaches and emphasis are shifted, and the game slowly morphs from month to month, year to year, and a new edition is never actually developed. 10 years from now D&D will look a bit different than it does now - but it won't be called 5E.

Even more, I expect that mention of editions (except in a historical context) will eventually disappear also (officially - not necessarily by customers). You'll have rules online set up in various degrees of complexity and approach (simple and fast, complex, simulationist, story telling, tactical, etc.) - an ala carte RPG courtesy of online DDI.
B-)

I don't disagree with this and have had similar thoughts; I remember starting a thread a year or so back about DDI being the new core.

That said, I think there will always be new print runs, "state of the game" editions, so to speak. And the easiest, most clear--and probably most money-making--way to differentiate these print runs is through new editions. The difference being that the online version will always be the most up-to-date; this is already the case - compare, for instance, the 2008 Player's Handbook with DDI right now.

Who is 'they'? Who is coming up with some wildly divergent idea for D&D, and why would he be so opposed to it they need to remove him?

You know...them. :p

I suspect you've got several much more likely possible reasons:
1) Layoffs were coming for coming, for whatever reasons. As is often the case, a senior employee might volunteer to leave, knowing that by departing with their higher salary, it would mean not having to cut 2-3 staff members lower in the ranks.
2) Alternatively, this involves a follow-up to the reorganization from last year, when they split into the board game and RPG divions. The context of that different approach might have resulted in some positions not being as needed, or needed in different ways.
3) Or this may indeed be blowback from a failed initiative. I don't know one way or another if Essentials has 'failed', but if it did end up getting oversold to management, and ended up underperforming, the blame might end up hitting up high.

I don't know if any of those are the case. But it doesn't seem likely, to me, that this sort of thing would be indicative of 5E being on the horizon. It actually seems evidence that isn't the case, since I don't think, if there had been any forward momentum on such a thing, that they would disrupt it midstream in such a fashion.

Hmm...I don't think this is necessarily true. If WotC is restructuring to prepare for a new edition of the game to begin serious development, with a scheduled publication in, say, 2-3 years, why wouldn't they clear house a bit? Especially if they want to bring fresh minds on to design the new edition?

There is also the question of how much staff is needed to run WotC pre-Essentials when they were churning out tons of books, versus now when meatspace products are fewer but DDI is the focus. Maybe they've found their DDI sea legs and realize they don't need as many folks to run the virtual ship.

I'm open to any theory at this point - my point is only that we can interpret the data in various ways.

I'm not sure that is a large enough sample size to make any really accurate predictions... especially given the different contexts of some of these editions.

Who said anything about "really accurate"? ;) Speculation is fun because it doesn't have to be accurate at all.

I mean, my one theories are only a year or two behind yours - I don't think it impossible that 5E is approaching, just that it isn't especially close, and that all these current 'signs' and 'evidence' have basically nothing to do with it at all.

So you don't think that Mearls' recent series of articles has nothing to do with 5E, that he isn't fishing for ideas and feedback?

I strongly suspect 2014, to coincide with the 40th anniversary of D&D.

That's a good point - I hadn't thought of that. Given that fact, I'm feeling a bit more strong in my suspicion that 2014 is the year that we get the "40th Anniversary Edition" of Dungeons & Dragons. Knowing WotC, they might try to get away with it not being a new edition but everyone will call it 5E, even if they don't!
 


http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images.../12/19/1229684509497/Them!-giant-ants-001.jpg

:)
Them!-giant-ants-001.jpg
 

Hmm...I don't think this is necessarily true. If WotC is restructuring to prepare for a new edition of the game to begin serious development, with a scheduled publication in, say, 2-3 years, why wouldn't they clear house a bit? Especially if they want to bring fresh minds on to design the new edition?

Well, again, I'm just not sure the folks making the call would be thinking along those lines. It just seems far less plausible than the various other possibilities, especially with so little else to support it.

But it also depends on the time-frame. There is a big difference between saying, "5E is actively being worked on, is not too far off and may be a year away"... and saying, "4E is about halfway over, and we'll see 5E in 3 years, around 2014."

Your initial post suggests, basically, the 5E is very actively being thought about right now. Not just Mearls and others letting thoughts percolate in the back of their minds, but a new direction is in mind and being established, and that this involves removed Bill. That just seems exceedingly unlikely and unsupported.

There is also the question of how much staff is needed to run WotC pre-Essentials when they were churning out tons of books, versus now when meatspace products are fewer but DDI is the focus. Maybe they've found their DDI sea legs and realize they don't need as many folks to run the virtual ship.

Maybe - I'm inclined to suspect the reduced product line-up is compensated by the split-off board game division. But it's true they may be scaling back.

But, again - drawing these sorts of conclusions seems to require actively ignoring past evidence. Layoffs are, as unfortunate as it may be, a regular thing at WotC. If the previous ones didn't indicate any of these things, why should this time be more significant?

So you don't think that Mearls' recent series of articles has nothing to do with 5E, that he isn't fishing for ideas and feedback?

Nothing to do? Of course not - I'm sure these thoughts will be on his mind when that time comes. But is it directly related to, and is he 'fishing for ideas'? I think that far less likely. I think he is working on a column and examining his own thoughts on the game. I think that will inform 5E eventually, but is more likely to be informing 4E design as well, especially as they settle on the direction of the game post-Essentials.
 

Honestly? I don't know if I'd characterize any 5e speculation thread we've had as a really good discussion on the topic.

I remember one really good one. If I could recall the thread title I'd link to it, but it was something like "If you had control of the next version of D&D, what would you do".

There were lots of really thoughtful and inspiring posts. If only I could remember the title or even the month it was written!
 

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