D&D 5E 5E Survivor - Subclasses (Part VII: Monks)

CleverNickName

Limit Break Dancing
Sadly, in a certain sense, these "survivor" threads tend to favor the lowest common denominator. The initial few days of votes clear out the things that are either not generally liked at all, or super controversial. Once these easy pickings are removed, you see consolidation around two camps: the effective, and the traditional, for highly subjective definitions of both of those things. And, generally speaking, tradition will win out. It's why PHB options--when there are PHB options--are almost universally favored over non-PHB options. It's rare for a PHB option to be a true stinker (looking at you, Beast Master), but a lot of them are very "safe."

Essentially, because dislikes are 2x as powerful as likes, anything that is even mildly disliked, no matter what the reason or even for no reason, will evaporate in a puff of smoke. Anything that is blandly inoffensive is much more likely to survive to the final round, at which point all the stuff people felt strongly about will already be gone. And don't get me wrong, I get why dislikes have to be stronger than likes, we need the voting to end eventually. But the format essentially guarantees that anything novel or distinctive will get ground into the dust.
Yep, you're 100% correct: it's because of the way the math is set up. Downvotes carry twice the weight of upvotes, so three detractors can undo the work of six supporters. This is necessary in order to make the contest end after a reasonable amount of time, but it is definitely not a measure of an option's quality or popularity. The winners of Survivor contests tend to be more middle-of-the-road, the ones that don't cause any fuss or call too much attention to themselves. There are exceptions every now and then, but more often than not? The path to victory is to not be seen.

And that's why I love them. Everyone loves to talk about the Superstar Quarterback, and we all love to complain about those Rotten Referees...but how often does the Quiet Everyman get the spotlight?
 

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RealAlHazred

Frumious Flumph
it is definitely not a measure of an option's quality or popularity.
INCORRECT! The winner of each contest is, objectively, by weight of sheer numbers, the absolute best subclass of the bunch. If you disagree and prefer another, the thing you like is, objectively, bad, flavorless, and dull to play, and you must immediately report to another thread to begin re-education and indoctrination to correct the error of your ways!
 

Yep, you're 100% correct: it's because of the way the math is set up. Downvotes carry twice the weight of upvotes, so three detractors can undo the work of six supporters. This is necessary in order to make the contest end after a reasonable amount of time, but it is definitely not a measure of an option's quality or popularity. The winners of Survivor contests tend to be more middle-of-the-road, the ones that don't cause any fuss or call too much attention to themselves. There are exceptions every now and then, but more often than not? The path to victory is to not be seen.

And that's why I love them. Everyone loves to talk about the Superstar Quarterback, and we all love to complain about those Rotten Referees...but how often does the Quiet Everyman get the spotlight?
Is it the Quiet Everyman? Or is it the Cliche Milquetoast? Because I definitely feel like it's the latter, which is why it doesn't get the spotlight. "Quiet Everyman" implies that the thing is necessarily appealing, that it actually speaks to most people and is a true unifier, people just happen to overlook it in their search for something dramatic. Instead, I find the winner tends to be the thing which recoils from ever making a strong statement about anything at all. Hence why the Druid came down to Land and Shepherd, Barbarian to Ancestors vs Totem which are basically the same thing in fluff terms, and why Lore Bard won with a ridiculous 33 points over the much more interesting, but also more focused, College of Eloquence.

It's not just a matter of being a reliable workhorse. Several reliable-workhorse options died quick deaths (e.g. Champion Fighter, Berserker Barbarian, to a certain extent Life Cleric--it wasn't an "early" kill but it died well before several more esoteric options.) It's that a thing needs to avoid standing out in any way at all. A smooth surface that catches no attention. Less "do your job and do it well, even if you don't get rewarded for it," and more "do whatever it takes to avoid ever offending anyone, no matter what." Because who cares about doing anything actually interesting, as long as you avoid doing anything that might possibly upset anyone ever?
 

CleverNickName

Limit Break Dancing
Is it the Quiet Everyman? Or is it the Cliche Milquetoast? Because I definitely feel like it's the latter, which is why it doesn't get the spotlight. "Quiet Everyman" implies that the thing is necessarily appealing, that it actually speaks to most people and is a true unifier, people just happen to overlook it in their search for something dramatic.
All I'm sayin' is, the least popular and the most popular options are usually the first to go. Often in that order. It has very little to do with which ones are "good," or "the best," or even "better than that other one." Trying to assign a measurement of quality to the victors and losers of a popularity contest is bad for one's blood pressure and I don't recommend it.

I say "quiet everyman," you say "milquetoast cliché," but I think we're both saying the same thing: "this is neither the best nor the worst option."
 


OB1

Jedi Master
All I'm sayin' is, the least popular and the most popular options are usually the first to go. Often in that order. It has very little to do with which ones are "good," or "the best," or even "better than that other one." Trying to assign a measurement of quality to the victors and losers of a popularity contest is bad for one's blood pressure and I don't recommend it.

I say "quiet everyman," you say "milquetoast cliché," but I think we're both saying the same thing: "this is neither the best nor the worst option."
Which in itself stems from people generally knowing what the most popular choice is, and downvoting it early to try and make way for their own favorite to win for fear of competition. Thus we end up with Survivor winners that are generally neither loved nor hated by the majority, exactly how this type of voting is supposed to work!
 














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