D&D General 5e Tier 2 Play: Advice

[GothmogIV]

Hello friends. So, I am about to re-start a 5e D&D game with my players (five) in a highly bastardized version of Descent Into Avernus. The characters are level 6. I have been a DM for a long, long (loooonnnnngggggg...) time, and I have struggled a bit with the power creep in 5e. Essentially, these characters are bad asses. I have used gritty realism for healing, and kept magical items to a very dull roar, but they're still quite powerful. Beyond just juicing the naughty word out of hit points for monsters, is there any other advice out there for ways I can keep it challenging, and not have them chew up everything I put in their way?
I have realized that 5e is a very different game than the 1-3e that I used to play. Help me get my head around how to make these characters feel challenged without making it impossible for them.
Thanks, folks (or...ffolks, since they are currently on the Moonshae Islands in the Forgotten Realms).

 

[J-H]

Use the following:
-a 5e adventuring day (5-8 encounters between long rest)
-Terrain, cover, distant foes, and 3D movement (ledges, cliffs, fliers, etc.)
-Reinforcements
-2-3 enemy types per encounter
-Enemies that hit harder (to drain hit point resources) but are also squishier. One of my more favorite combats recently was a bunch of rogues. Easy to hit, hard to pin down, and when they hit, they hit pretty hard.

A typical combat is supposed to last only 3-5 rounds, with 5 being on the high end. Don't expect super-long fights unless it's a big boss setpiece.

Also make sure your players are following the rules properly... no Quickened double-fireball, tracking hit dice and spell slot use, etc. A lot of "My players are too powerful" comes from this.

 

[Quickleaf]

Hello friends. So, I am about to re-start a 5e D&D game with my players (five) in a highly bastardized version of Descent Into Avernus. The characters are level 6. I have been a DM for a long, long (loooonnnnngggggg...) time, and I have struggled a bit with the power creep in 5e. Essentially, these characters are bad asses. I have used gritty realism for healing, and kept magical items to a very dull roar, but they're still quite powerful. Beyond just juicing the naughty word out of hit points for monsters, is there any other advice out there for ways I can keep it challenging, and not have them chew up everything I put in their way?
I have realized that 5e is a very different game than the 1-3e that I used to play. Help me get my head around how to make these characters feel challenged without making it impossible for them.
Thanks, folks (or...ffolks, since they are currently on the Moonshae Islands in the Forgotten Realms).

This is something I put together to articulate my own process more clearly. There's a lot of art to it, and the Adventuring Day Budget "Approx. Max %" is something I developed wholly by feel with my play groups and playtested up to 12th level. My point is YMMV. But the principles here are sound.

Generally speaking, monsters start to have a drop off in their offensive capabilities somewhere between CR 5 and CR 11. Rather than inflating HP as a matter of course – you'll spend more time in combats that way (whereas I want to spend less time in combat than 5e already does) – simply upping monster damage is a quick fix. Something like 5-8 DPR per CR isn't a bad target.

 

[Oofta]

Let's see, I do various things. I try to switch things up, so I don't do all of these I just kind of mix it up. Also remember that sometimes no matter what you do the dice gods will smile on the players and they'll stomp on what you thought was a difficult encounter.

Rests:
Like you I use the gritty rest rules and typically aim for 4-6 medium to hard difficulty fights.

Difficulty:
The DMG encounter guidelines seem to be aimed at the lowest common denominator, so don't hesitate to bump up the XP budget. I have a spreadsheet I got on this site ages ago (see attached), XGtE has an updated version as well. Depending on group I may add a level or two to the party if I'm not challenging them.

Also consider adding in a mix of levels. This can be multiple things like a lower level cleric that just buffs the bad guy, archers on the balcony or even just disposable goblins that run up and help the big bad.

Modifying monsters:
Sometimes I add or max out HP, especially for casters. More frequently I'll add to attack bonus and damage, or just give the monsters advantage on all their attacks. Sometimes I'll add AC as well.

I also will simply bump up a monster that makes sense that's a little too low a level by adding levels. One reference I use for leveling up monsters or making new ones is the monster CR on a card from Blog of Holding which is also attached. I even redo some monster's stats using it, especially those from the MM.

Some to the 3PP monsters are also far more threatening, my latest acquisition was Kobold Press Tome of Beasts 1.

Tactics:
Don't always have the monsters show up in fireball formation. Come in waves, come from different directions, flank. Focus fire when it makes sense.

Intelligent humanoids always have backup and ranged weapons. Even monsters that don't will duck under cover or into spots where ranged attacks are less effective.

Goals:
Switch up the goals of the party and how the monsters will react. Sometimes the foe should be unbeatable, but the goal is to just survive or get the McGuffin. Sometimes monsters fight to the death, sometimes they'll just focus on one PC and drag them off to be eaten in peace.

That's about it off the top of my head. Just remember, you have infinite dragons!

 

[Mirrorrorrim]

IME, difficulty scales most noticeably based on action economy. The more bad guy actions and attacks, the more the heroes will feel the heat. A small number of bad guys is still going to be outclassed by a party of heroes, each with their own suite of actions.

If one wyvern is easy, send 2 or 3. They will feel it.

But I like a balance of encounters where the heroes can be badarse and kick the spit out of some monsters, and some where the Barbarian will sweat. My last barbarian died because he tried to off-tank too many lieutenants while everyone else took on the BBEG. He lost due to action disparity.

 

[GothmogIV]

View attachment 376753

This is something I put together to articulate my own process more clearly. There's a lot of art to it, and the Adventuring Day Budget "Approx. Max %" is something I developed wholly by feel with my play groups and playtested up to 12th level. My point is YMMV. But the principles here are sound.

Generally speaking, monsters start to have a drop off in their offensive capabilities somewhere between CR 5 and CR 11. Rather than inflating HP as a matter of course – you'll spend more time in combats that way (whereas I want to spend less time in combat than 5e already does) – simply upping monster damage is a quick fix. Something like 5-8 DPR per CR isn't a bad target.

This is awesome, thank you!

 

[Blue]

Thank you for including a lot of detail, as you eliminated the two first ones I've seen - less than 4-6 encounters regularly, and being overly generous in giving magic items (and ability scores and extra feats).

Frankly, if you're doing enough encounters per day, I don't know what is making it so easy. 5e has a nice buffer between fear of death and actual death, which many people coming from earlier editions mistake as easy mode. But most of the rest of the "easy mode" comments are because designer expectations don't match how most people run, and you do seem to be avoiding them.

 

[Theory of Games]

Hello friends. So, I am about to re-start a 5e D&D game with my players (five) in a highly bastardized version of Descent Into Avernus. The characters are level 6. I have been a DM for a long, long (loooonnnnngggggg...) time, and I have struggled a bit with the power creep in 5e. Essentially, these characters are bad asses. I have used gritty realism for healing, and kept magical items to a very dull roar, but they're still quite powerful. Beyond just juicing the naughty word out of hit points for monsters, is there any other advice out there for ways I can keep it challenging, and not have them chew up everything I put in their way?
I have realized that 5e is a very different game than the 1-3e that I used to play. Help me get my head around how to make these characters feel challenged without making it impossible for them.
Thanks, folks (or...ffolks, since they are currently on the Moonshae Islands in the Forgotten Realms).

The 5e DMG suggests using the Adventuring Day XP Table. Let us see:

1. A "medium" encounter for five 6th-level PCs = 3000 XP

What can we buy with 3000 XP?

Spoiler

• 60 Skeletons
• 60 Goblins
• 30 Orcs
• 15 Dire Wolves
• 60 Wolves
• 15 Giant Spiders
• 4 Basilisks
• 15 Bugbears
• 6 Carrion Crawlers
• 4 Centaurs
• 1 Chimera
• 6 Demons (Dretch)
• 4 Displacer Beasts
• 4 Doppelgangers
• 1 Elemental
• 6 Gargoyles
• 3 Ghosts
• 15 Ghouls
• 1-2 Hill Giants
• 1 Frost or Stone Giant
• 30 Gnolls
• 15 Harpies
• 4 Hell Hounds
• 30 Hobgoblins
• 1 Hydra
• 4 Intellect Devourers
• 1 Invisible Stalker
• 120 Kobolds
• 15 Lions
• 30 Lizardmen
• 1 Lurker Above
• 4 Werewolves
• 4 Manticores
• 1 Medusa
• 120 Bandits
• 1 Mind Flayer
• 6 Mimics
• 4 Minotaurs
• 4 Mummies
• 6 Ogres
• 4 Owlbears

I think I've made the point. Each entry is a 3000 XP encounter. Now, just give the players 6-8 of those. If the players complain

 

[Quickleaf]

The 5e DMG suggests using the Adventuring Day XP Table. Let us see:

1. A "medium" encounter for five 6th-level PCs = 3000 XP

What can we buy with 3000 XP?

Spoiler

• 60 Skeletons
• 60 Goblins
• 30 Orcs
• 15 Dire Wolves
• 60 Wolves
• 15 Giant Spiders
• 4 Basilisks
• 15 Bugbears
• 6 Carrion Crawlers
• 4 Centaurs
• 1 Chimera
• 6 Demons (Dretch)
• 4 Displacer Beasts
• 4 Doppelgangers
• 1 Elemental
• 6 Gargoyles
• 3 Ghosts
• 15 Ghouls
• 1-2 Hill Giants
• 1 Frost or Stone Giant
• 30 Gnolls
• 15 Harpies
• 4 Hell Hounds
• 30 Hobgoblins
• 1 Hydra
• 4 Intellect Devourers
• 1 Invisible Stalker
• 120 Kobolds
• 15 Lions
• 30 Lizardmen
• 1 Lurker Above
• 4 Werewolves
• 4 Manticores
• 1 Medusa
• 120 Bandits
• 1 Mind Flayer
• 6 Mimics
• 4 Minotaurs
• 4 Mummies
• 6 Ogres
• 4 Owlbears

I think I've made the point. Each entry is a 3000 XP encounter. Now, just give the players 6-8 of those. If the players complain

So... there's a "multiple monster XP modifier." In scenes with lots of monsters you don't use RAW XP for encounter building maths in 5e – it gets adjusted by this "multiple monster XP modifier" due to just how big of a factor having an action economy advantage is.

I'll attach a snapshot of what I'm referring to from DMG page 82.

This is not perfect – there's also newer encounter building stuff in Xanathar's – but this multiplier IS something that my experience tells me is important to factor. Again, I'll reiterate that the WotC maths for Encounter Multipliers in the DMG is... it's not precise... do TWO monsters really need a multiplier? No that's dumb... but it's the general IDEA around comparing action economies that's important to keep in mind.

For example, 15 bugbears will sum up to 3,000 XP, but then the x4 multiplier makes the threat they present to a typically sized party of PCs more like 12,000 XP. The DMG makes this sound precise. It's not. But the point is they're much more threatening than the 3,000 XP you assumed because they get so many more actions than the party.

Going back to my method – total adventuring day budget for this part of Five 6th level PCs is 20,000 (Adjusted) XP.

My experience is that throwing ~50% of that total (Adjusted) XP at a 6th level party in one encounter is going to be pushing them to their limits. So the 15 bugbears would – obviously depending on circumstances (e.g. 150 feet away in open terrain with two PCs casting fireballs? the party surprising the bugbears? etc) – be much more likely to play out like a brutal scene where they are fighting for their lives and having to pull out all the stops.

 

[Quickleaf]

This is awesome, thank you!

You have lots of GMing experience, so I think you'll get an intuition for how to gauge 5e fight difficulty pretty quick. Best thing I've found is if you have a combat for an upcoming session that you're pretty sure will happen, share a quick blurb of what you're thinking on ENWorld – 5e, # PCs, level, anything you've noticed special about the party, the monsters you plan on throwing at them, anything special about the encounter – and folks are really good about giving ideas for how to fine tune.

What you can then do is maybe one or two ideas really work for you, and you change your encounter. But the others maybe you take another 1 or 2, maybe some inspire your own ideas, then jot those down as "On the Fly Adjustments" you can use if you start to notice the encounter playing very differently from the narrative/emotional impact you were aiming. You don't always need to do this "On the Fly" stuff, but it's a good learning tool for 5e.