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5E 5e Updates: Mythic, Epic, and Hardcore Monsters


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dave2008

Legend
Well, you "only" had to defeat Bane once.
I updated my previous comparison with thier effective HP

Annam: 4,230
Bane: 1,440

The extra HP is important as now that I have seen what some 3PP epic PCs can do, I know a lvl 30 group of 6 can take out my previous Bane in about 1-3 rounds. That is not acceptable for a greater god IMO. Annam, and these mythic gods in general, will be a much more interesting challenge and may actually test these high level groups.
 
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Matrix Sorcica

Adventurer
What 3PP product is that? There are several.

So you're basing these designs on the power levels of 3PP material, not the epic boons after 20th, that WotC uses (and presumably base their power levels on)? Why?
 

dave2008

Legend
What 3PP product is that? There are several.

So you're basing these designs on the power levels of 3PP material, not the epic boons after 20th, that WotC uses (and presumably base their power levels on)? Why?
Both. I have looked at lot of stuff, but primarily Epic Options and Epic Characters on the DMsGuild. However, it is generally true for epic boons too. Obviously the epic boons on the DMG are just a template of what you can do with the concept and it can be expanded with more boons to cover what ever bases you need (which some 3PP have done as well).

However, even with the base boons you can easily get a PC with a very rare magic item getting a +19 to hit without any buffing magic. The same fighter can easily do at least 160-240 HP in one turn on average with an action surge. That is 960-1,440 hp of damage in one round from a 6 party group. They can do that for at least 4 rounds or a total of 3,840 - 5,760 damage.

PS. I don't think WotC did any study of power levels above lvl 20. They have only recently published something more powerful than Tiamat and she isn't really much of a challenge for a well organized tricked out lvl 20 group. Epic boons allow even my un-optimized players to take the official Tiamat to the woodshed for some easy chopping.

EDIT: One difference from my Epic Updates is my assumptions on party size. I was basing my previous ideas on a 4 person group. My group is 6 people and that is what I am basing my assumptions on now. Also, since the monsters don't hit as hard, there is less need to spend time healing the group.
 
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Matrix Sorcica

Adventurer
Okay, except for the fighter not being able to action surge for 4 rounds 😉 I follow. I think most groups are 4-5 PCs btw (totally not-based on anything).
 

dave2008

Legend
Okay, except for the fighter not being able to action surge for 4 rounds 😉 I follow. I think most groups are 4-5 PCs btw (totally not-based on anything).
My fault, some of the epic options can do that, but your right boons cannot, though it would be a reasonable assumption to add such a boon. I mean there is a boon that gives an extra 9th lvl spell slot. Also, that was not optimized damage either - it can get worse (or about the same with the right # of attacks ;))

FYI, in Epic Characters at lvl 29 a fighter gets 6 attacks per round standard and has 3 action surges for 42 attacks in 4 rounds (vs the 32 I assumed).

Party size is a strange thing. Ultimately I can only try things out with the group I have, So that is why I made the change. I also did some thinking and realized my average group size was 6+, so I just used 6 as my new standard. I actually did an analysis of the encounter guidelines a while back and remember discovering the DMG really assumes a party size of 3 for solo MM monsters. That is a big reason MM monsters feel so weak IMO (because the encounter budgets are off).
 




imeannoharm

Dorkus
So will your 30+ monsters remain CR 30+? I'd hate to see gods get nerfed. Will you keep the CR system from your 5e epic monster updates?
Also I noticed a potential problem with the Mythic template: the DPR stays the same when the trait is used, but the HP is doubled, at least. Will you increase the DPR or something along those lines to compensate? Or do the Mythic actions balance the issue?
 

Hey Dave2008. What do you use currently to calculate CR for these creatures? (Asking because if I am going to rebuild Rajara using your rules I will need to know what the baseline numbers are for her).

Do you have any recommendations for what her CR should be as a draconic quasipower?

Also I assume that she will no longer be mythic under your system, correct?
 

dave2008

Legend
So will your 30+ monsters remain CR 30+? I'd hate to see gods get nerfed. Will you keep the CR system from your 5e epic monster updates?
Whatever the changes, they gods are not getting nerfed. As I indicated in my comparison of Epic Bane (CR 39) and Mythic Annam (CR 39), the mythic version is overall a much tougher encounter.

Now, when I port something I often review it. So, individual gods or monsters might get nerfed (or buffed), but no whole sale changes. Right now I am planning on using the CR in the epic updates, but the CR is calculated with the revised chart on the OP under EPIC TRAITS. This chart is just an extrapolation of the chart in the DMG. Therefore, the numbers are a little lower than the ones in the epic updates. However, the mythic trait more than compensates for the difference.


Also I noticed a potential problem with the Mythic template: the DPR stays the same when the trait is used, but the HP is doubled, at least. Will you increase the DPR or something along those lines to compensate? Or do the Mythic actions balance the issue?
That is not how the mythic concept works. The DPR doesn't change because it is conceptually to versions of the same monster. Not one monster with 2x the HP. The monster before and after the mythic trait is active needs to have its CR balanced independently. That is the beauty of the system for keeping BA in check while providing a much more challenging encounter.
 
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dave2008

Legend
Hey Dave2008. What do you use currently to calculate CR for these creatures? (Asking because if I am going to rebuild Rajara using your rules I will need to know what the baseline numbers are for her).

Do you have any recommendations for what her CR should be as a draconic quasipower?
I use the DMG guidelines. I then extrapolated out to CR 50. If you DM me your email address I can send to the excel spreadsheet that I use. To be honest, I don't overthink it to much. I generally get the CR based around the HP and AC for defense CR and attack bonus and DPR of attack CR. I then adjust for big ticket items like magic resistance and immunity. I don't worry to much about resistance and immunities because, unless you go overboard, as at epic levels resistances should be expected.

Regarding Rajara I can tell you what I am planning for Dragons in general by age category:

Adult: updated Legendary
Elder: same CR as adult (maybe +1 or 2), but Mythic
Ancient: updated Legendary
Great Wyrm: same CR as ancient (maybe +1 or 2), but Mythic

For demigod or quasi-deity I am probably just using a standard legendary monster in the CR 15-30 range (they very a lot in power IMO). However, with your mythic version it seems to me you are going for something in the lesser god power range. Or perhaps stat Rajara as a great wyrm? That is sort of between a quasi-deity and lesser god in power.
 
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Matrix Sorcica

Adventurer
FYI, in Epic Characters at lvl 29 a fighter gets 6 attacks per round standard and has 3 action surges for 42 attacks in 4 rounds (vs the 32 I assumed).
If you don't mind me saying, that is unspired design imo. Doesn't feel very epic if all is just bigger numbers. Plus, six attacks sounds like a slog! (Fighter: "I action surge!" Other Players: "We'll watch The Irishman")
 

dave2008

Legend
If you don't mind me saying, that is unspired design imo. Doesn't feel very epic if all is just bigger numbers. Plus, six attacks sounds like a slog! (Fighter: "I action surge!" Other Players: "We'll watch The Irishman")
Well, that is not all you get, but I tend to agree. Personally I think 4 is to many. I allow my PCs to cause double damage instead of extra attack (and double again with action surge).
 

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