D&D 5E 5E: Whips?

[Eltab]

My Ancients Paladin carries a Whip as a just-in-case thing, and when I want to show off rather than fight efficiently.

Playing Murder in Baldurs Gate, there is a possibility that you will see a (grossly unfair) duel/challenge. My Paladin stepped in to intervene and used his whip as a weapon. Because he's supposed to be about 40 years old, the obnoxious jerk was about 18-21, and now I could taunt the foe, "Who's your daddy? I'm gonna give you a whippin'!" (The jerk got a crit on me but collapsed after receiving my first blow.) Gossip on the street the next day was how the jerk was humiliated by some stranger.

I also got a chance to totally block a street, using Reach and Opportunity Attacks. (Later I found out I had mis-read the rules; this doesn't really work.)

I don't use the whip in serious combat, I use it to do Indiana Jones stuff. When I want the enemies dead, I pull a rapier.

 

[Thurmas]

I don't think the whip sucks, it seems to be exactly where it should be for damage compared to everything else. Compare it to any other Reach weapon, which have the 2 handed and Heavy properties and the 1d4 seems right on. Plus it gets finesse.

A feat for it would be nice, for some added utility. Mechanics for a disarm, or for a knocked prone. Maybe some kind of forced move action, where as you move they have to move an equal number of squares in the same direction. Word them similarly to grappling:

Disarm: When you want to disarm a creature, you can use the Attack action to make a special melee attack, a disarm. If you’re able to make multiple attacks with the Attack action, this attack replaces one of them. The target of your disarm must be no more than one size larger than you, and it must be within your reach. Using your whip, you try to seize the target's weapon or object it is carrying (not worn) by making a disarm check, a Strength (Athletics) or Dexterity (Acrobatics) check (your choice) contested by the target’s Strength (Athletics) or Dexterity (Acrobatics) check (the target chooses the ability to use). If you succeed, the target is disarmed of the weapon or object, which lands at a point of your choice within your reach.

Trip: When you want to knock a creature prone with your whip, you can use the Attack action to make a special melee attack, a trip. If you’re able to make multiple attacks with the Attack action, this attack replaces one of them. The target of your trip must be no more than one size larger than you, and it must be within your reach. Using your whip, you try to trip the target by making a trip check, a Strength (Athletics) or Dexterity (Acrobatics) check (your choice) contested by the target’s Strength (Athletics) or Dexterity (Acrobatics) check (the target chooses the ability to use). If you succeed, the target is knocked prone.

Pull: When you want to pull a creature toward you with your whip, you can use the Attack action to make a special melee attack, a pull. If you’re able to make multiple attacks with the Attack action, this attack replaces one of them. The target of your pull must be no more than one size larger than you, and it must be within your reach. Using your whip, you try to pull the target by making a pull check, a Strength (Athletics) or Dexterity (Acrobatics) check (your choice) contested by the target’s Strength (Athletics) or Dexterity (Acrobatics) check (the target chooses the ability to use). If you succeed, the target is pulled toward you a distance equal to half your reach. If you use the move action during a pull, you can move the creature the same direction an equal number of feet to the distance you moved.


A simpler concept might just be to give a whip feat some superiority dice and a couple pertinent BM maneuvers. The only reason I didn't go that route is I don't think the abilities should add more damage, or even do damage at all.

 

[Sir Brennen]

I don't think the whip sucks, it seems to be exactly where it should be for damage compared to everything else. Compare it to any other Reach weapon, which have the 2 handed and Heavy properties and the 1d4 seems right on. Plus it gets finesse.

A feat for it would be nice, for some added utility. Mechanics for a disarm, or for a knocked prone. Maybe some kind of forced move action, where as you move they have to move an equal number of squares in the same direction. Word them similarly to grappling:

Disarm: When you want to disarm a creature, you can use the Attack action to make a special melee attack, a disarm. If you’re able to make multiple attacks with the Attack action, this attack replaces one of them. The target of your disarm must be no more than one size larger than you, and it must be within your reach. Using your whip, you try to seize the target's weapon or object it is carrying (not worn) by making a disarm check, a Strength (Athletics) or Dexterity (Acrobatics) check (your choice) contested by the target’s Strength (Athletics) or Dexterity (Acrobatics) check (the target chooses the ability to use). If you succeed, the target is disarmed of the weapon or object, which lands at a point of your choice within your reach.

Trip: When you want to knock a creature prone with your whip, you can use the Attack action to make a special melee attack, a trip. If you’re able to make multiple attacks with the Attack action, this attack replaces one of them. The target of your trip must be no more than one size larger than you, and it must be within your reach. Using your whip, you try to trip the target by making a trip check, a Strength (Athletics) or Dexterity (Acrobatics) check (your choice) contested by the target’s Strength (Athletics) or Dexterity (Acrobatics) check (the target chooses the ability to use). If you succeed, the target is knocked prone.

Pull: When you want to pull a creature toward you with your whip, you can use the Attack action to make a special melee attack, a pull. If you’re able to make multiple attacks with the Attack action, this attack replaces one of them. The target of your pull must be no more than one size larger than you, and it must be within your reach. Using your whip, you try to pull the target by making a pull check, a Strength (Athletics) or Dexterity (Acrobatics) check (your choice) contested by the target’s Strength (Athletics) or Dexterity (Acrobatics) check (the target chooses the ability to use). If you succeed, the target is pulled toward you a distance equal to half your reach. If you use the move action during a pull, you can move the creature the same direction an equal number of feet to the distance you moved.

A simpler concept might just be to give a whip feat some superiority dice and a couple pertinent BM maneuvers. The only reason I didn't go that route is I don't think the abilities should add more damage, or even do damage at all.

All of these actions can be considered already covered by the existing rules, and none should require a feat.

Disarm is problematic because it's one of those "why can't I attempt this without a whip?" maneuvers. The answer is, of course, anyone can (see Contests in Combat in the PHB). The DMG also has optional, specific rules for Disarm, which also doesn't require a feat.

Trip is just another version of Shove, or if you want to treat it separately, something else covered under Contests in Combat. I may be wrong, but I can't imagine a DM who wouldn't allow someone to do this with a whip, even without a feat. Trip isn't that harsh of a condition as it was in earlier editions, since it only costs 1/2 movement to stand up, and doesn't provoke an attack when doing so. Melee attacks get advantage while they're down, but you have to time this for other characters to take advantage of.

Pull would also be something that would fall under Contests in Combat. The only benefit I might see a feat giving might be allowing the attack and pull happen as part of the same action.

I think I like one of the earlier suggestions of a feat letting the wielder attempt these sorts of attacks as a bonus action.

 

[droid6689]

I'm building a castlevania style character ranger Hunter 5/rogue Swashbuckler 15 that uses a whip with athletics expertise to trip foes near my frieds while I attack other targets

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk

 

[see]

Offhand, I have trouble seeing a good use for the whip. Its 1d4 damage makes it sub-optimal for any class that relies heavily on weapon damage dice. Because it's not light, you have to have the Dual Wielder feat to use it as an off-hand weapon, which means you could be using a rapier in that hand. Is it really worth giving up 2 damage/round to have reach with one of your attacks?

As your everyday bread-and-butter do-damage weapon, yeah, it's sub-optimal. But if you wind up under tactical circumstances where you need a reach weapon, what other choices are there compatible with any of small size, a Dex build, or the dueling fighting style? Fight with the rapier all you like normally; if you wind up needing reach (like to hit the sorcerer standing behind the line of kobolds), it's convenient to have a whip in your gear.

 

[Chuck Johnson]

Coming late to the party on this discussion, but wanted to throw out what I just came up with for a Whip Master feat to support one of my players getting ready to start the Tomb of Annihilation campaign and using the Archaeologist background for his Rogue/Fighter character (yes, he is trying to make Indiana Jones).

Whip Master
Must be proficient with Whips in order to take this feat. If you take this feat, and you are a rogue, you may apply your Expertise to this in lieu of a skill or thieves' tools.
When attacking a humanoid (bi-pedal) enemy with a whip, instead of doing a damage based attack you may choose to attempt one of these three attack options (must declare before the attack)
• Trip - On a successful hit the target makes a Dexterity save (DC10 + your proficiency). On a fail, they are knocked prone. A critical hit causes the target's save to be made with disadvantage.
• Lasso - On a successful hit the target is Restrained. In order to free themselves they must make a Strength(Athletics) or Dexterity(Acrobatics) check (DC10 + your proficiency) on their turn. The exception to the Restrained movement limitation is that they target can move towards you with no penalty. Your whip cannot be used for any other attacks while the restraint is being maintained.
• Choke - You must apply a -5 modifier to your attack roll. On a successful hit, the whip encircles the target's neck, cutting off airflow and preventing the target from breathing. In order to break the choke, the target must make a Strength(Athletics) check (DC10 + your proficiency). If the attack is a critical hit, blood flow to the brain is restricted, and the target will fall unconscious on their 2nd turn after the attack unless they free themselves. Your whip cannot be used for any other attacks while the choke is being maintained.
If any of these attacks are successful against a spell caster maintaining a concentration spell, they must make a DC10 concentration check to maintain concentration.

 

[SmokeyCriminal]

So I was playing a Thief that used a Whip (no Prof) and for the first 4 lvls it was going really bad. I'd try to swing over a pit with the Whip and i'd roll a Whip attack with no prof and fail. I'd use my Attack to Disarm and id roll (Whip attack vs. Athletics/Acrobatics) and fail. I was failing so much with it that it got to the point that when I mentioned pulling out the Whip the table would give me a look like "Really? Your going to try again? Why are you putting yourself through this?"

But my DM had an idea to incorporate the Thief Fast Hands and Second-Story Work Features with the Whip and turn the Whip into an extension of the Features and make it more like a tool for the Thief.

Disclaimer: The rest of the party was very strong and there was no fear of the Thief overshadowing anyone's anything, or had any desire for Whips themselves so maybe that's why it seemed okay to give the Thief so much utility with the Whip.

--- First she looked at Second-Story Works (And my STR dump stat I'm sure) and said "When you can reasonably use your Whip in combination with Second-Story Works to climb up to your regular movement speed, you won't need to roll.

Basically the first 30 feet of climbing the side of a house, tree, cliff with outcroppings of rock or branches, you can do. Unless I specifically say you can't, assume you can."

--- Then she looked at the long distance jump and said "When you can reasonably use your Whip in combination with a long jump to swing, you can clear 30 feet, no roll. Unless I specifically say you can't, assume you can"

---Then she looked at Fast Hands and said that I could Bonus Action Interact With Objects in combination with the Whip.

"Grab keys, mugs, weapons, potions, stuff like that, and pull them towards yourself. Think of the Whip as a 10-15 foot grappling hook/sticky hand. Unless I specifically say you can't, assume you can."

---Then she said I could Bonus Action steal Objects worn off of people using (Sleight of Hand) using the Whip combined with Fast Hands.

--- Then she said I could Bonus Action Disarm using the Whip in combination with Fast Hands using (Sleight of Hand). oh ya, there was exceptions. Large creatures or two-handed weapons gave me disadvantage, no shield, and if a creature had a shield I couldn't disarm their weapon (The shield was in the way?) and EVERY creature had a back-up weapon it was usually a down grade, tho. Some weapons had wrist straps like maces which was basically her letting me know no disarming for this NPC, sorry.

She said disarming is basically stealing and you're the Thief so it fits thematically. I thought that a Bonus Action Disarm might be too strong, but she said that if I was crazy enough to run towards a skirmish and TRY to steal someones weapon when I could be using my Bonus Action to get away and hide with my Expertise in Stealth, and soon Supreme Sneak, and not be targeted, and get Advantage on my attack then I must REALLY want that weapon. Anyways she said it says in Fast Hands that you can Disarm a trap so close enough. oh ya, there was exceptions.

--- Then I guess she figured that Trip and Trap sounded close enough because she said I could use the Whip in combination with Fast Hands to use Shove to knock prone a Creature using Dex or Str Athletics because the weapon has Finesse. Large creatures gave me Disadvantage, can only trip size Large or smaller. more then two legs creatures can't be tripped.

I thought this was too strong because it would basically give me Advantage for my Sneak Attack and the rest of the party all the time. But then she said it would also be keeping me from running and hiding to get the same Advantage which is what I should be doing since I'm a Thief. Plus she said that the Pally already has Shield Master and the Bear Barb GWM has Reckless and don't need any help getting Advantage, if anything it was going to annoy the Sorlock because it would be another creature he can't Agonizing Blast. Also she said she wanted me to feel less reliant on my allies for Sneak Attack so that I'd be less reluctant to climb up things and be out of reach from their aid in case I was attacked and on my own (which happened often once I started using Second-Story Works regularly).

--- Then she looks at Uncanny Dodge and said whenever you take fall damage you can use Uncanny Dodge in combination with the Whip to halve the damage when possible.

She said it's like in the movies where the guy whips a branch and it breaks so he still falls but not as hard, but only when its reasonable. She would usually allow us to save for half damage when we fell so this would potentially allow me to save for 1/4 damage. It seemed like a lot to me, but she said by then she'll have bigger problems dealing with the Sorlock twin hasting a smite monster and a rage beasts and dropping double fireballs, and isn't bothered by me surviving falls, plus she said the damage will be made up by the fact that I'll be falling a lot more then the rest of the party (Which was very true, I must have taken falling damage about 5 times more often then anyone else in the party) so it evens out.

--- Finally, even tho I don't think it ever came up, she gave me Proficiency with the Whip, she said I've used it enough times so I might as well get the Proficiency. But honestly I can't think of a time I actually used it to attack.

I don't know if this would work for the Whip in and of itself because of how other Classes would interact with it. But for the Thief it was pretty great and balanced, because it was always a choice of being sneaky and careful or being flashy and bold. You don't have enough Actions to do both, but as a Rogue you can switch from one style to the other every turn without issue. I think overall I ended up being a little less effective Damage wise compared to playing the Rogue the "right" way. But the cool/fun factor, which is already pretty high for the Thief, was way off the charts with the Whip, maybe even TOO fun. The over-all damage trade off and deliberately putting myself in dangerous situations was completely 100% worth it.

 

[snickersnax]

The whip just happens to be one of the times where RAW matches up decently with real-world usefulness.

I don't think the whip sucks, it seems to be exactly where it should be for damage compared to everything else. Compare it to any other Reach weapon, which have the 2 handed and Heavy properties and the 1d4 seems right on. Plus it gets finesse.

I have to disagree here. The fact that whips are better for chopping down trees for high dexterity characters than a hand ax is ridiculous. Compare a 20 dexterity, 10 strength whip wielder (average 7.5 slashing damage) to the same guy using a hand ax (3.5 average slashing damage) or even a great ax (6.5 average slashing damage).

For a guy with 12 dexterity and 10 strength the whip matches the hand ax.

How are whip lumberjacks even a thing?

 

[Thurmas]

I have to disagree here. The fact that whips are better for chopping down trees for high dexterity characters than a hand ax is ridiculous. Compare a 20 dexterity, 10 strength whip wielder (average 7.5 slashing damage) to the same guy using a hand ax (3.5 average slashing damage) or even a great ax (6.5 average slashing damage).

For a guy with 12 dexterity and 10 strength the whip matches the hand ax.

How are whip lumberjacks even a thing?

Slashing damage in combat doesn't mean that translates to tree chopping ability. You have in this case a character highly skilled in using a whip vs merely average when using a hand axe. A DM would have to be insane to allow that to translate into chopping down a tree. That's not combat, that's a tool.

 

[snickersnax]

Slashing damage in combat doesn't mean that translates to tree chopping ability. You have in this case a character highly skilled in using a whip vs merely average when using a hand axe. A DM would have to be insane to allow that to translate into chopping down a tree. That's not combat, that's a tool.

There is no reason to think that chopping wood is much different than chopping down a wall of ice (AC 12, 30 hit points per 10' section) or a wall of stone (AC 15, 30 hit points per inch) or a Treant (AC 16, 138 hit points). Or any other object or monster with AC and hit points. If you need to have a bunch of exceptions to damage caused by whips, because it doesn't translate to damage elsewhere, then I think there is a problem.

By the way, our 20 dexterity 10 strength guy is exactly as skilled at using a whip as he is with a hand ax (proficiency +2), but somehow his hand-eye coordination, nimbleness and quickness causes a whip to hit much more often and deal way more damage.

I'm all for whips having cool special abilities like grappling and intimidation benefits, but I don't think whip damage is where it should be compared to other weapons or that the rules align with real world usefulness.