D&D 5E 5th edition Forgotten Realms: Why can't you just ignore the lore?

That's why major reboots are often a bad idea - the potential downside is WAY bigger than the potential upside.

I think an actual reboot might actually be better received than a slate-wiping, campaign-altering event like the Spellplague (or Time of Troubles). In this case, I mean a reboot taking things back to an earlier point in the canon (maybe even the start) in order to present the campaign under a new set of rules, redefining the old canonical elements under the new rule framework.
 

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Kind of a false analogy. I can like Star Wars and want to play with jedi and the Empire, but not want Han Solo to fly by in the Millennium Falcon, roll down the window and go "'Sup nerds, we just blew up the second Death Star, but hey, there's a half dead stormtrooper over there you could probably beat up if you all worked together". Its why many Star Wars games take place in an alt timeline, to let the PC's have the spotlight, and not just maybe aspire to be Jek Porkin's wingman.

Its really the glut of uber good aligned NPC's that cause problems for DM's, particularly given how there seems way more of them (and they're way more powerful) than the bad guys.

see here is another example of game/fun problems with settings. I had in highschool played in WeG D6 starwars under a GM who had the following rules: everything is set pre a new hope by atleast 5 years... so no Movies matter. Because of the era no Jedi, and because he disliked the droids, no droids. and because he wanted to limit wealth, no one could own a star ship...even if they earned enough to buy one in game, the act of buying one made your character an NPC... I played through 1 1/2 campaigns that way, and watched as lots of people said "Dude that's not even starwars at that point." I finally agreed and left that game, he ran 4 campaigns and never ended one with the same players he started with.

many years later a DM tried to run Saga system Star wars set in post thawn, pre yusang Voong era, and we had this problem where there was a force power that took actions away from targets, and 3/4 of the party wanted to be jedi... that game crashed and burned quick
 

I think an actual reboot might actually be better received than a slate-wiping, campaign-altering event like the Spellplague (or Time of Troubles). In this case, I mean a reboot taking things back to an earlier point in the canon (maybe even the start) in order to present the campaign under a new set of rules, redefining the old canonical elements under the new rule framework.
Completely agree. Reboot to the Old Gray Box of 1E Realms, before all the cheez-whiz.
 

see here is another example of game/fun problems with settings. I had in highschool played in WeG D6 starwars under a GM who had the following rules: everything is set pre a new hope by atleast 5 years... so no Movies matter. Because of the era no Jedi, and because he disliked the droids, no droids. and because he wanted to limit wealth, no one could own a star ship...even if they earned enough to buy one in game, the act of buying one made your character an NPC... I played through 1 1/2 campaigns that way, and watched as lots of people said "Dude that's not even starwars at that point." I finally agreed and left that game, he ran 4 campaigns and never ended one with the same players he started with.

many years later a DM tried to run Saga system Star wars set in post thawn, pre yusang Voong era, and we had this problem where there was a force power that took actions away from targets, and 3/4 of the party wanted to be jedi... that game crashed and burned quick

Here is the gist of your problem.

You want one thing, while your player's want something else.
 



I don't agree that sticking to canon is tremendously important, but I do agree that there are limits (both practical ones, and artistic ones), that it's not unimportant, and that there are a lot of successful products that don't follow it slavishly.

I can think of a few comics examples. In Spider Man, at least in the periods I'm familiar with (more-or-less from the beginning through to the early 90s), there were a series of plots on more-or-less permanent rotation: Aunt May would have a heart attack, or be kidnapped, or marry Dr Octopus or Mephisto or whomever, etc; Peter would flirt with Mary Jane, or even get together with her, but then they would break up (often for Spider Man-related reasons); etc.

There's a reason these plots recycle: they arise naturally from the characters as presented (both theme and backstory), and most of those who are reading this year's Aunt May crisis or MJ on-again/off-again romance weren't reading the version that ran 2 or 5 or 10 years ago.

But if I was running a Marvel Heroic game, would I make all this stuff part of the backstory of Spider Man and co? It would be ludicrous - a bit like the Hardy Boys being perpetually 17 and 18 and fitting dozens of mysteries into their school holidays. Stuff that makes sense in serialised fiction with stable characters and a generally changing readership simply can't hold up when it is supposed to be all held true all at once. You have to pick and choose what to focus on and what to let go. (To my mind this is part of the strength of the X-Men movies - they capture the themes and basic character elements terrifically, but without crowding out the essentials with nonsense crud which is simply the result of the need to publish a new 20-something pages every 4 weeks.)

Another comics example is the Maddy Prior factor in X-Men: Claremont recycled the name Maddy Pryor (taken from the English folk singer) and it ended up being stuck on a major character. The earlier use in Avengers Annual 10 (I think - going from memory here) is best just disregarded.

Besides LotR, it's hard to think of a bigger influence on D&D than REH's Conan (I guess Leiber and Vance are the other candidates). But it's also hard to think of a collection of fantasy stories with a common protagonist to which canon could be less important. The Hyborian Age is a self-conscious amalgam of a range of times and places from Earth's past, but imagined rather than real, and hence freed from the constraints of historical consistency or fact-checking. In REH's stories Conan is wherever and whenever the author wants him to be for literary and imaginative purposes, and the world can be the imagined Near East of Zamora and its spider-haunted towers (the paradigm of sword-and-sorcery in my book), or the feudal lands and cavalry of Poitan, or the idealised frontierfolk of Beyond the Black River.

Of course it's fun to draw up Conan timelines, and to try and fit it all in and make it all make sense, but ultimately it's like trying to work out how Frank and Joe Hardy fit so much adventure into a dozen or two weeks of holidays: pointless, and missing the point.

I have to say you've convinced me. I see more clearly why Ryan Delancy said what he did. I just know I have tried to piece together the canon for Greyhawk, starting as DM with the From the Ashes setting and wanting to know more about the past. I wouldn't even try to do this with Forgotten Realms. I would still run a game in Forgotten Realms, but I would tell my players what I knew about them and what I was interested in writing for it.

And by the way, REH's Conan was the greatest influence on D&D, as said by its co-creator, Dave Arneson! (Even greater than LotR). :cool:
 
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ok the problem is how do I know what question to ask?

would I need to everytime I come up with a plot have to ask for a list of NPCs in and around the entire country I am setting it, then ask for stats and a list of personality traits for each?

the problem is/was (this was years ago) players with MUCH more knowledge makes the DM not able to catch up...

10 years ago Paul was still a player (since got married, and moved to a different state) Dave (since had a nervous break down and moved in with his sister in another country) and Ross and Kurt as players (there were more but those 4 are the issues, kurt and ross still play) now of the 4 of them, Paul and Kurt used to live together, and at the time Paul had a bookshelf with every single novel, and most of the rpg stuff he called the 'realms shelf' Paul had read all of it many times over (as far as I know he re reads them every few years) and kurt was going through them. Ross and Dave had different sets of books, ross love the finder books and dave the drizzt ones and both had a few others, but both owned the 2e sets of books.

Now at the time I had read 2 Novels set in the realms, one was the spellfire book, the other was a series of little pocket stories. I had read the grey box set, and skimed the 3.0 book. You can notice a big difference. I didn't even know what I was getting myself into. I had no idea who the 7 sisters where, or who Volo was (I thought the book Volo's guide to all things magical was a generic book not an FR one these people where talking about)

I spent levels (6 or 7) doing my best to run in the realms and my PCs tried to put up with my lack of knowledge, but it was grating on both sides.... you know who got the most annoyed... Tom (My brother in law and casual player) because he didn't care 1 lick for canon, and had never in his life played in a published setting before.

To this day I have players (mostly kurt, sometimes Ross, and a player who is 'newish' since 3.5) ask "I really want to play in the realms, can you run a realms game." and my answer is always the same "Sorry, Akbar say's that isn't in my best interest."

4e made it sooo much easier, time jump + limited canon. I could read 1 book (the campaign guide) and know everything that everyone else did. I didn't need to worry about a list of NPCs longer then my arm, or anything else...

The questions to ask would be really

1) "What are people doing with the Realms today, as in what is popular?"
2) "What characters and events should I know about as DM?"
3) "How can I make my idea more consistent for my players who know a lot of the canon?"

TSR had a support line. That would be great because you get to talk to someone. Besides this, they should try to publish an annual online document that answers the first two questions for everyone every year. They should have statistics for every NPC you can reach by clicking a link under their name. This is what I would recommend, anyway. I don't know about the cost of creating these resources, but it would be in their interest because the more DM's are able to do this, the more popularity they will bring through word of mouth to the setting and all of its publications.
 

Please explain what exactly is keeping you from ignoring canon and lore besides what your players want.

Well, nothing really. Isn't that kinda the point? That if I ignore canon, I'm not going to have any players?

But, let me turn that around. What's stopping you from ignoring canon?
 
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Let me ask you this then, if it's perfectly acceptable for DM's to limit canon sources, why is it automatically bad for WOTC to scale back canon sources?

No one is saying that FR should have no canon. That's missing the point of a published setting. But, when WOTC tried to scale back on the level of canon, with the 4e Spellplague stuff, people went straight around the bend. Not because the new canon was somehow poorly written or whatnot, but, simply because it was axing large swaths of previous canon.

At what point can the holders of canon step back and hit a restart button?

It would be bad because for them it's a job they are doing for all of us, whereas an individual DM is just using their own personal preferences. If it is really impractical for the company to support existing canon, they might want to edit their prospective writing then. Frankly, I don't think TSR has been good at this since Gygax ran the company. I asked myself if I can remember a setting that has never been "blown up" as people say, and only BirthRight comes to mind. In every other setting, they have radically shaken up the world all of a sudden.

In the Forgotten Realms, this has happened more than once. You first had the Time of Troubles, and eventually all they did for 4th Edition. In Greyhawk, you had the Greyhawk Wars and their aftermath, again, all of a sudden. And in Mystara, you had the Wrath of the Immortals all of a sudden. In DragonLance, there are many great changes but at least these came more gradually. In Ravenloft, things were shaken up all of a sudden.

You end up with settings like Dark Sun, where many players long for the original boxed set. Planescape and BirthRight may be the only settings to escape this trend. Neither is widely played, but both have a loyal fanbase. I don't know much about Al-Qadim and SpellJammer, or Eberron, but it strikes me as really odd that the authors have felt so many times they needed to blow up their worlds in order to continue to use them in later products.
 

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