6 Epic Spells Per Day at Level 21?

[Atavar]

Hello Everyone,

I wanted to run the following by you and ask if you agree with me that it is possible for a spellcaster to be able to cast six epic spells per day at character level 21.

Classes: Wizard 3/Cleric 3/Mystic Theurge 10/True Necromancer 5. This makes him the equivalent of a Wizard 17/Cleric 17 in terms of spell capacity, and thus able to cast both 9th level arcane and 9th level divine spells.

Skills: Spellcraft, Knowledge (arcana), Knowledge (religion), and Knowledge (nature) at 24 ranks each. The caster has a high enough Int score to spend on cross-class ranks when necessary. Since these are all class skills for a wizard the maximum rank in each is 24 at 21st character level.

Feat: Epic Spellcasting at level 21. Here is a link to the feat description:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#epicSpellcasting

The feat is described as follows:

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Epic Spellcasting [Epic]

Prerequisite: Spellcraft 24 ranks, Knowledge (arcana) 24 ranks, ability to cast 9th-level arcane spells. OR Spellcraft 24 ranks, Knowledge (religion) 24 ranks, ability to cast 9th-level divine spells. OR Spellcraft 24 ranks, Knowledge (nature) 24 ranks, ability to cast 9th-level divine spells.

Benefit: You may develop and cast epic spells. If you are an arcane spellcaster, you may cast a number of epic spells per day equal to your ranks in Knowledge (arcana) divided by 10. If you are a divine spellcaster, you may cast a number of epic spells per day equal to your ranks in Knowledge (religion) or Knowledge (nature) divided by 10.

Special: If you meet more than one set of prerequisites, the limit on the number of spells you may cast per day is cumulative.
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This feat has three sets of prerequisites. This spellcaster meets all three. He has 24 ranks in each of the prerequisite Knowledge skills. Thus, I think he gets ((24 DIV 10) + (24 / 10) + (24 / 10)) = (2 + 2 + 2) = 6 epic spells.

However, the feat description seems ambiguous to me on one point. According to the Special section the number is dependent on the number of sets of prerequisites that are met (3 in this case), while in the Benefit section it says that divine spellcasters base the number on the ranks in Knowledge (religion) OR knowledge (nature), implying that the real number of epic spells per day is ((24 DIV 10) + (24 DIV 10)) = (2 + 2) = 4 for this spellcaster.

So, what do you think? Is the right answer 4, 6, or some other number of epic spells per day for the above 21st level spellcaster?

Thanks,

Atavar

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"All we are saying...is give peas a chance...." - Unknown

 

[Rackhir]

Benefit: You may develop and cast epic spells. If you are an arcane spellcaster, you may cast a number of epic spells per day equal to your ranks in Knowledge (arcana) divided by 10. If you are a divine spellcaster, you may cast a number of epic spells per day equal to your ranks in Knowledge (religion) or Knowledge (nature) divided by 10.

Special: If you meet more than one set of prerequisites, the limit on the number of spells you may cast per day is cumulative.
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This feat has three sets of prerequisites. This spellcaster meets all three. He has 24 ranks in each of the prerequisite Knowledge skills. Thus, I think he gets ((24 DIV 10) + (24 / 10) + (24 / 10)) = (2 + 2 + 2) = 6 epic spells.

However, the feat description seems ambiguous to me on one point. According to the Special section the number is dependent on the number of sets of prerequisites that are met (3 in this case), while in the Benefit section it says that divine spellcasters base the number on the ranks in Knowledge (religion) OR knowledge (nature), implying that the real number of epic spells per day is ((24 DIV 10) + (24 DIV 10)) = (2 + 2) = 4 for this spellcaster.

4 Spells. It says OR in the Knowledge Nature/Religion line and you have essentially only two caster types (arcane and divine). The multiple benefits line would seem to refer to that divide. Now if you had three spell casting classes say Druid, Wiz and Cleric or some combination there of that you could cast at epic levels in then you could qualify for 6 a day.

 

[Vuron]

4 Epic spells

Knowledge(Nature) would only kick in if you could cast 9th level Druid spells.

 

[Atavar]

4 Spells. It says OR in the Knowledge Nature/Religion line and you have essentially only two caster types (arcane and divine). The multiple benefits line would seem to refer to that divide. Now if you had three spell casting classes say Druid, Wiz and Cleric or some combination there of that you could cast at epic levels in then you could qualify for 6 a day.

I think you may be right, but I also think the case can be made that I am right, and that the answer probably lies with how a DM chooses to interpret it. Bottom line, the feat needs to be worded better to take out the ambiguity. The reason I think it is 6 is precisely because the Special section seems to contradict the Benefit section by saying the number of epic spells is dependent on the number of SETS of prerequisites, of which there are three.

4 Epic spells

Knowledge(Nature) would only kick in if you could cast 9th level Druid spells.

I disagree. The feat says nothing about Knowledge (nature) only being applicable to a druid caster. That may have been the original intent, but whatever the intent, that is not what the feat says. Technically, any divine spellcaster that can cast 9th level spells--even a cleric--that has 24 ranks in Knowledge (nature) can take this feat (assuming he also has 24 ranks in Spellcraft, of course).

Take care,

Atavar

 

[Ulorian - Agent of Chaos]

There aren't three sets of prerequisites, there are only two:

1) Arcane caster with 24 ranks in Knowledge (arcana).
2) Divine caster with 24 ranks in either Knowledge (religion) or Knowledge (nature).

The 'or' means that you have an option as to which Knowledge skill you want to use to meet the divine caster prerequisite.

You can only take 4 epic spells.

 

[Atavar]

Of course there are three sets of prerequisites. Just look under the Prerequisite section of the feat description:

"Prerequisite: Spellcraft 24 ranks, Knowledge (arcana) 24 ranks, ability to cast 9th-level arcane spells. OR Spellcraft 24 ranks, Knowledge (religion) 24 ranks, ability to cast 9th-level divine spells. OR Spellcraft 24 ranks, Knowledge (nature) 24 ranks, ability to cast 9th-level divine spells."

There are two OR's there, thus there are three sets of prerequisites. If there truly were two sets of prerequisites (one for arcane, one for divine) then it should be written as follows:

"Prerequisite: Spellcraft 24 ranks, Knowledge (arcana) 24 ranks, ability to cast 9th-level arcane spells. OR Spellcraft 24 ranks, Knowledge (religion or nature) 24 ranks, ability to cast 9th-level divine spells."

That may or may not be what was intended. I can only go by what's been written, and what was written was three prerequisites. Whatever the intent, that's what we have.

I'm not saying it's definitively 6 epic spells. But it's also not definitively 4, either, due to the ambiguously worded feat description.

Thanks,

Atavar

 

[GeorgeFields]

Now if you had three spell casting classes say Druid, Wiz and Cleric or some combination there of that you could cast at epic levels in then you could qualify for 6 a day.

I disagree. I believe it is only arcane & divine making 4 the maximum in the OP's example. The druid spells would fall under divine.

Essentiually, a druid / cleric combo would never qualify twice because BOTH are divine casters.

 

[Ulorian - Agent of Chaos]

Of course there are three sets of prerequisites. Just look under the Prerequisite section of the feat description:

"Prerequisite: Spellcraft 24 ranks, Knowledge (arcana) 24 ranks, ability to cast 9th-level arcane spells. OR Spellcraft 24 ranks, Knowledge (religion) 24 ranks, ability to cast 9th-level divine spells. OR Spellcraft 24 ranks, Knowledge (nature) 24 ranks, ability to cast 9th-level divine spells."

There are two OR's there, thus there are three sets of prerequisites. If there truly were two sets of prerequisites (one for arcane, one for divine) then it should be written as follows:

"Prerequisite: Spellcraft 24 ranks, Knowledge (arcana) 24 ranks, ability to cast 9th-level arcane spells. OR Spellcraft 24 ranks, Knowledge (religion or nature) 24 ranks, ability to cast 9th-level divine spells."

That may or may not be what was intended. I can only go by what's been written, and what was written was three prerequisites. Whatever the intent, that's what we have.

I'm not saying it's definitively 6 epic spells. But it's also not definitively 4, either, due to the ambiguously worded feat description.

Thanks,

Atavar

After having reread the way the prerequisites are written, I have to change my mind. It looks like you are entitled to 6 epic feats. I was going strictly by what the Benefits section of the feat description. The Prerequisites has 3 sets of prerequisites as written. Those capitalised ORs in the Prerequisites description seem to indicate that this was intentional. The vague writeup in the Benefits section seems to contradict this, but it's hard to argue with the clarity of the Prerequisites description.

 

[ainbimagh]

Epic Spellcasting [Epic]

Prerequisite: Spellcraft 24 ranks, Knowledge (arcana) 24 ranks, ability to cast 9th-level arcane spells. OR Spellcraft 24 ranks, Knowledge (religion) 24 ranks, ability to cast 9th-level divine spells. OR Spellcraft 24 ranks, Knowledge (nature) 24 ranks, ability to cast 9th-level divine spells.

Benefit: You may develop and cast epic spells. If you are an arcane spellcaster, you may cast a number of epic spells per day equal to your ranks in Knowledge (arcana) divided by 10. If you are a divine spellcaster, you may cast a number of epic spells per day equal to your ranks in Knowledge (religion) or Knowledge (nature) divided by 10.

Special: If you meet more than one set of prerequisites, the limit on the number of spells you may cast per day is cumulative.

Pre-requesites only determine if you get the feat, they do not determine the benefits. The benefits line determines this and states you get 2 arcane spells and 2 divine spells.

This is the sentance from benefits that clenches it all.
"If you are a divine spellcaster, you may cast a number of epic spells per day equal to your ranks in Knowledge (religion) or Knowledge (nature) divided by 10"

 

[Ulorian - Agent of Chaos]

Pre-requesites only determine if you get the feat, they do not determine the benefits. The benefits line determines this and states you get 2 arcane spells and 2 divine spells.

This is the sentance from benefits that clenches it all.
"If you are a divine spellcaster, you may cast a number of epic spells per day equal to your ranks in Knowledge (religion) or Knowledge (nature) divided by 10"

Actually, it doesn't. Don't forget the Special section, which makes a direct reference to the Prerequisites.