D&D General 6E But A + Thread

[mamba]

I see "UA" and think Unearthed Arcana, which probably isn't what it means here. So what is it here?

it is Unearthed Arcana, but for 5e those are the playtest documents they ask for feedback on, not the 1e book by the same name

 

[EzekielRaiden]

No, but have you considered the possibly that their scorched earth response was also inappropriate?

I have, yes. Have you considered that it wasn't possible for them to know that? That they were taking the most reasonable path forward, and that they had correctly believed that what they originally did wasn't any different from previous editions, hence why they concluded that this was the correct choice?

The argument made was that WotC invented a game nobody wanted to play, actively avoiding listening to customer feedback. The Golden Wyvern Adept fiasco shows, objectively, that that argument is wrong. They did listen. They did try to respond. But they had to somehow magically know the perfect Goldilocks zone, and they had to figure that out in just a couple of months. It simply wasn't possible to do.

 

[Faolyn]

As said to Micah: The problem is that the standard being levied is one of being irritated with design-by-popular-vote, but that is literally what 5e was! It literally did that! So if design-by-popularity is a bad idea now, I have to ask: Why wasn't it a bad idea then?

If it is a bad idea now, then perhaps it's because it's possible for people to learn from others' mistakes.

Or perhaps what people wanted then (something not like 4e) is no longer what people want now (5e but more). And thus a committee idea now would simply cause 6e to have too much of what's wrong or disliked about 5e.

 

[Scribe]

I really don't want to rehash edition war nonsense.

No no, of course not.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

No no, of course not.

As if they are even remotely the primary driver here. That blame belongs to me, and a couple of others.

 

[Parmandur]

Any idea how extensive and-or diverse in playstyles-experience-preferences this "private playtest network" is?

Or is it just the designers at their own gaming tables?

I'm not in the program myself (though some posters here are or have been in the past), nor are there exact numbers, but it is people.outside, often well outside, the designers inner circles. That's what makes WotC desogn different from TSR's, from as far back as the 90s based on the syste.s they developedto playtesf Magic: every product gets playtested on the level of providing actual data. Every Campaign book thst Perkons wrote, based on what he said on Dragpn Talk, was plaued through by well over 100 outside tables thst provided detailed AAR before the final editing pass.

 

[Scribe]

As if they are even remotely the primary driver here. That blame belongs to me, and a couple of others.

Yeah, I think any shots being fired mostly miss the point, and especially miss the point of this thread.

For its virtues and faults, 4e was near 20 years ago. Thats hilariously long ago. Its much more relevant to discuss other games (Draw Steel) than 4e. Especially since 4e in the wider consciousness? Honestly, you are looking at people who would have zero actual knowledge of it.

It would seem to me, that the value would be found in looking at the current edition, and seeing what could be changed to make it more palatable, since 'just make 4e' is a nonstarter to likely the vast majority of us.

 

[Zardnaar]

No idea. I can only report the facts as they occurred. This is what happened. The designers listened to fan criticism before release, and they were literally told that what they did to respond to that was also unacceptable.

You can dispute many things, but the events that occurred are what they are. Unless you're meaning to say that I've lied about what happened regarding Golden Wyvern Adept?

Who they listened to is the problem.

General forum bitching (mistake number 1) and the RPGA (mistake number 2).

Most players don't post on forums or play in organized play.

They didn't do an open playtest.

You're the one aways complaining about being unable to find 4E games. There's a reason for that. They didn't listen. They did for 5E biggest selling edition ever. You'll probably find 5E games in 30 years time.

 

[Zardnaar]

Yeah, I think any shots being fired mostly miss the point, and especially miss the point of this thread.

For its virtues and faults, 4e was near 20 years ago. Thats hilariously long ago. Its much more relevant to discuss other games (Draw Steel) than 4e. Especially since 4e in the wider consciousness? Honestly, you are looking at people who would have zero actual knowledge of it.

It would seem to me, that the value would be found in looking at the current edition, and seeing what could be changed to make it more palatable, since 'just make 4e' is a nonstarter to likely the vast majority of us.

Go have a look at 4E phb now. Its terrible lol. SWSE has also aged not great along with art from 2000-2010.

Some cartography still looks nice.

3E, 4E, and Pathfinder 1E looks dated. Noticed how much recently as I purchased Kingnaker AP and Shackled City AP.

 

[mamba]

This precipitated an absolute firestorm, because how DARE the books DEMAND that every GM's world absolutely must have Golden Wyverns in it, and an order of Adepts named after it that practiced certain types of techniques! That was so horrendously offensive, it kicked off an incredible wave of outrage. So WotC listened. This was before the books were ready to be printed, so they adjusted. They removed all of the flavorful names and gave things clean, dry, no-fluff titles so that every group could invent their own flavor. They reduced the presentation of fluff on powers to just a single line of generic descriptive text, so that people could get a loose idea of the designers' intent, but not feel in any way restricted by that intent. They focused their designs on being effective mechanics, and trusted GMs to specify the flavor and world-building, because that is what people told them they wanted.

And then what was 4e trashed for? Dry, mechanical descriptions and design. Books with no flavor, descriptions that were "anemic", everything sooooo generic.

I mean, that is a lesson they should have been aware of. Opinions are diverse, so if you listen to one person complain, chances are you are upsetting another person - and the one who is currently upset is the one complaining while the one who is currently happy is silent. That is just how this always goes.

So the solution is not to listen only once and then run to the most extreme corner and stay there…

I also doubt that having a bit more flavor would have made 4e a success, but that is another topic