D&D General 6E But A + Thread

[Faolyn]

They are talking about Jesus.

Ah. Strangely, I thought lumberjack.

 

[Micah Sweet]

They are talking about Jesus.

Yeah. Honestly I'm fine with either term, but sacred cow is more well-known and shorter to say.

 

[Micah Sweet]

From actually checking the math.

Three "deadly+" encounters simply cannot produce enough bonus damage output for a Champion to ever, even remotely, keep up with a Paladin--to say nothing of the Wizard, who will be eating well with all the enemies that must be present, or the singular enemies that will almost surely have at least one weak saving throw they can target, as opposed to their AC, which will be extremely difficult for said Champions to actually hit. (Remember, even if the Champion's crit range is increased, ONLY a natural 20 is a guaranteed hit. You can "crit but miss" on a 19 as a Champion.)

If you have to check the math, then it isn't explicitly stated.

 

[CreamCloud0]

I like 5E and I like the 2014 version better than the 2024 version TBH. I don't think 2024 fixed anything and actually made the system worse

For 6E, here are things I would like to see:

1. Less complexity. Especially for non-casters and non-magical combat.

2. Less focus on PC balance. I want fewer silly mechanics in there to balance things, focus on the fiction and let the power disparity develop naturally. There will be weak choices and strong choices, that is ok, embrace it instead of trying to fix it. Maybe point it out in the PHB so noobs know which choices are strong and which are weak.

3. More access to spells. I would like to see wider spell access to all characters and less barriers. In particular we need to eliminate "fenced" spells that it is very hard to get off list (ex Armor of Agathys, Dissonant Whispers, Divine Smite). These need to be more accessible to a wider array of PCs in an easier fashion. Also, it is a magical world so any character can use any scroll with no chance of failure.

4. More open multiclassing: I would also like to see fewer barriers to multiclassing, similar to Baldur's Gate; make it wide open with no restrictions. Players who can figure out how to exploit multiclass combos should be rewarded for that.

5. Fewer weapons and fewer armor choices: There should be about 20 weapons and 3 armor choices (light, medium, heavy) and everything should be rolled into that. For example "sword" should include Longswords, Shorstwords, Scimitars and Rapiers, "Pole Arm" should include Glaives, Halberds, Pikes, Lances and Quarterstaffs.

6. One bonus for saving throws: There should only be one number for a saving throw, just like an attack roll. Have a DC and roll it. For your modifier you can combine all 6 of your bonuses and penalties into one modifier and then add a proficiency bonus. No picking and choosing between 6 different saves.

7. Less art and more substance in the art that is there: The art that is in the rulebooks should directly contribute to content, not be random drawings of "Mexican Orcs" and there should be a lot less of it. WOTC can sell artbooks with cover-to-cover art, but rulebooks should be primarily about the rules.

I think I disagree with everything here except the one about the art

 

[EzekielRaiden]

If you have to check the math, then it isn't explicitly stated.

...

Fine. Six to eight is there explicitly. Five I granted as a concession, to be generous. My apologies, for trying to give more grace than the text actually does.

For God's sake, it's not even hard math.

Champion, in 5.0, gets one extra crit every 20 attack rolls on average. For the first ten levels, they make no more than two attacks per Attack. This means that they need at least nine rounds (counting Action Surge) just to get +[W] damage--because remember, crits don't do extra static damage. Even if we assume the best possible value for [W], namely the greatsword's 2d6 with GWF (which averages to about 1.333... extra, total 8.333...), that means that, in nine rounds of combat, they get +8.333... extra damage. By comparison, the Battle Master is getting at minimum +4d8 = 18 extra damage every short rest. This means the Champion needs to get at least (18/8.333...)/2 = 10.8 Attack actions per SR to keep up--which means ~10 rounds of combat per short rest, factoring in 1 Action Surge per SR. Even if we assume 5-round combats, which are very long combats by everything I've ever been told about 5e, that still means you need a bare minimum of 6 combats (LR-> 2 combats -> SR -> 2 combats -> SR -> 2 combats -> LR) just to keep a decent pace with other Fighters....and Paladins do objectively better damage than Fighters with their spell slots spent on Smites.

So....yeah. Sorry for trying to be generous.

 

[dave2008]

From actually checking the math.

Three "deadly+" encounters simply cannot produce enough bonus damage output for a Champion to ever, even remotely, keep up with a Paladin--to say nothing of the Wizard, who will be eating well with all the enemies that must be present, or the singular enemies that will almost surely have at least one weak saving throw they can target, as opposed to their AC, which will be extremely difficult for said Champions to actually hit. (Remember, even if the Champion's crit range is increased, ONLY a natural 20 is a guaranteed hit. You can "crit but miss" on a 19 as a Champion.)

That has nothing to do with what I asked: where does it say you must have 5 encounters per day. The correct answer, it seems to me, would have been something along that lines: I misspoke, it doesn't explicitly say that. I was inferring that from the suggested 6-8 medium to hard encounters per day under the "The Adventuring Day" section of the DMG.

Why you chose to take my question the way you did I don't know. I was simply asking where you got 5 encounters per day from "explicitly" as I didn't remember that. It wasn't a gotcha, I was genuinely asking.

I you want me to respond to the body of your post I quoted I will, but it has nothing to do with my question as far as I can tell.

 

[dave2008]

I'm an OSR fan, and I like magic items. So do others (like @Lanefan whom I believe you've interacted with before). I just want them to be cool.

I have you seen Mike Mearls take on magic items for his 5e hack Odyssey? At first it didn't sit well with me, but I let it sit for a bit and I think it is a great idea. It, IMO, could lead to the coolest magic items in D&D from any edition.

 

[payn]

Where does it say that?

Because alllllll throughout D&D Next, that was explicitly the opposite of true. That magic items were explicitly NOT an expected part of the design, and were specifically always supposed to be 110% optional.

I recall exactly this.

The incessant celebrations of the magic item haters were one of the most tedious things about the first like two or three years of 5e's life for that very reason.

Guilty as charged.

 

[dave2008]

Where does it say that?

Because alllllll throughout D&D Next, that was explicitly the opposite of true. That magic items were explicitly NOT an expected part of the design, and were specifically always supposed to be 110% optional.

The incessant celebrations of the magic item haters were one of the most tedious things about the first like two or three years of 5e's life for that very reason.

I can't see who you responded too, so I don't know the specifics of the issue, but I agree the explicit intention was for 5e to work without magic items. I think they accomplished that and that it In fact works best without magic items, there is just not really any official support for that style of play.

 

[dave2008]

Where does it say that?

Because alllllll throughout D&D Next, that was explicitly the opposite of true. That magic items were explicitly NOT an expected part of the design, and were specifically always supposed to be 110% optional.

The incessant celebrations of the magic item haters were one of the most tedious things about the first like two or three years of 5e's life for that very reason.

Here is the quote from the 2024 DMG:

Are Magic Items Necessary?

The D&D game assumes that magic items appear sporadically and that they are a boon unless an item bears a curse. Characters and monsters are built to face each other without the help of magic items, which means that having a magic item makes a character more powerful or versatile than a generic character of the same level. As DM, you never have to worry about awarding magic items just so the characters can keep up with the campaign’s threats. Magic items are truly prizes—desirable but not necessary.