D&D General 6E But A + Thread

[ECMO3]

For people talking about a minimum or set number of encounters a day - that is really hard to do in a story-focused RPG. I mean if the story has you as a caravan guards traveling from Baldur's Gate to Waterdeep; that is about 40 days or so. If we are going to have a minimum of 4 encounters a day, that is 160 encounters on that trip. If you make these encounters medium difficulty, that is going to be enough XP to get from 1st level to around 12th level or so .... while traveling as a caravan guard.

It is a lot easier to do this in a wargame or something like that with no story to influence the number of encounters.

 

[Lanefan]

Every single time I've ever interacted with a self-avowed "OSR"/"old school" fan, they have made it clear their intense and consistent antipathy to the idea of giving out even the weakest of magic weapons, magic armor, or whatever else until the party is an extremely high level. Like, we're talking never giving out even a +1 weapon before level 10 in 1e or 2e, and even getting one at level 10 would be considered insanely generous.

Can't say I've ever seen anything like this. IME old-school PCs are often laden with magic items...until they fail an AoE save and half of them blow up.

It's 5e that strikes me as being the stingy edition when it comes to treasure, though as item destruction isn't a thing in 5e at least you get to keep what you find. (and you have to, as the rules won't let you sell it either!)

Have you not seen this yourself? The people who constantly advocated for "making magic items magical again", which 100% always meant "making magic items something nobody ever actually receives". The people who constantly railed against "christmas trees" and "magic item marts" as being the second-worst thing to ever happen to D&D. On and on it went.

There's a difference between the above, which is both extreme and bad, and...

The genuine hatred for the very idea that players could want, and try to gain, particular magic items because they liked said items or thought said items would make for a powerful combination of effects.

...this, which I can see the rationale for. I love the idea of there being lots of magic items in the game. At the same time, I loathe the idea of "wish lists", and prefer that the items found be random without regard to what particular characters happen to be looking for them.

There's 6 magic weapons and nothing a mage can use in this dungeon? Good, then so be it, whether it's a party of all warriors or a party of all mages going in there. The mages should be able to sell the weapons for cash (5e REALLY gets this wrong!) and then see what happens to be randomly on the market that they can buy and use; or use the cash to commission bespoke items for much later pickup.

 

[payn]

For people talking about a minimum or set number of encounters a day - that is really hard to do in a story-focused RPG. I mean if the story has you as a caravan guards traveling from Baldur's Gate to Waterdeep; that is about 40 days or so. If we are going to have a minimum of 4 encounters a day, that is 160 encounters on that trip. If you make these encounters medium difficulty, that is going to be enough XP to get from 1st level to around 12th level or so .... while traveling as a caravan guard.

It is a lot easier to do this in a wargame or something like that with no story to influence the number of encounters.

I'd assume that is adventuring days, not every single day of the life of the PCs. While undoubtedly some days will result in a number of encounters, some of those caravan days will be uneventful.

 

[dave2008]

Have you not seen this yourself? The people who constantly advocated for "making magic items magical again", which 100% always meant "making magic items something nobody ever actually receives".

That is not what I mean when I say it. I typically mean to make them interesting and not just +bonus to hit and damage or AC or a Save.

Have you seen Mike Mearls magic item ideas for his 5e hack Odyssey? They are pretty close to what I want in magic items that are more magical.

Magic Items in Odyssey
Putting Magic Back in Magic Items

 

[Scribe]

Where does it say that?

In my 6e book of course.

 

[ECMO3]

I'd assume that is adventuring days, not every single day of the life of the PCs. While undoubtedly some days will result in a number of encounters, some of those caravan days will be uneventful.

Ok so then you can't have a set piece encounter while traveling as a guard, unless you have another 3 encounters on that day?

It is easy to have a minimum if the story is you outfit yourself and delve into the dungeon to rid it of the evil hordes. It is much more difficult to do in an urban or wilderness adventure which focuses on story elements. If you try to stick to a number, what you end up with is a bunch of meaningless combat encounters that no one enjoys and are only there to meet this number.

Also, while most "adventuring days" undershoot the 6-8 number, some of them overshoot it too. We just finished a 5E update of the Demonweb pits and we did around 20 combats without a long rest in the Demonweb and Lolth's ship. We actually got a level of exhaustion when we tried to rest and my PC (Fey Ranger 13/Glamour Bard 5/Druid 1/Monk 1) had one 5th level spell slot for the last 5 encounters. She spent it on Wrathful Smite to kill Lolth in the finale with a thrown Javelin +2. She also had the Boon of Spell Recall, so she did not even always spend a slot when she cast a spell and she still ran out.

 

[Lanefan]

I'd assume that is adventuring days, not every single day of the life of the PCs. While undoubtedly some days will result in a number of encounters, some of those caravan days will be uneventful.

Agreed.

The problem arises when you want there to be days with just one encounter, or maybe a couple, and not have them all be cakewalks for the let's-go-nova PCs.

 

[ECMO3]

The problem arises when you want there to be days with just one encounter, or maybe a couple, and not have them all be cakewalks for the let's-go-nova PCs.

I think the problem arises mostly when the story drives you to this and the alternative is to have meaningless combats as fillers i.e. you get attacked by some random street thugs on the way to meet your contact at the tavern because you haven't had another fight today.

There is also a matter of player agency, if you have a sandbox and the PCs want to retire for the day - ok we have a lead and we need to infiltrate the Wizard's tower, but let's go back to the tavern and rest and do it tomorrow morning.

 

[payn]

Ok so then you can't have a set piece encounter while traveling as a guard, unless you have another 3 encounters on that day?
It is easy to have a minimum if the story is you outfit yourself and delve into the dungeon to rid it of the evil hordes. It is much more difficult to do in an urban or wilderness adventure which focuses on story elements. If you try to stick to a number, what you end up with is a bunch of meaningless combat encounters that no one enjoys and are only there to meet this number.

If you lack any planning and rely on old school rando generators, yeah its sort of going through the motions. Urban and wilderness can work exactly the same as a dungeon delve if you plan it out accordingly. It doesnt have to be 6-8 adventures either, it can be just a few deadly ones. You gotta play with the formula a bit to find out what works both with your group mechanically, and what works in the narrative.

Look im not saying 6-8 is what it needs to be, but its the result of going hybrid between an encounters game and an adventure day attrition one. I'd have picked one or the other personally, but this is what the designers baselined the game on.

Also, while most "adventuring days" undershoot the 6-8 number, some of them overshoot it too. We just finished a 5E update of the Demonweb pits and we did around 20 combats without a long rest in the Demonweb and Lolth's ship. We actually got a level of exhaustion when we tried to rest and my PC (Fey Ranger 13/Glamour Bard 5/Druid 1/Monk 1) had one 5th level spell slot for the last 5 encounters. She spent it on Wrathful Smite to kill Lolth in the finale with a thrown Javelin +2. She also had the Boon of Spell Recall, so she did not even always spend a slot when she cast a spell and she still ran out.

Goodness, a level 20 character probably should be overshooting 6-8 with all they have at their disposal. Again, if you want less encounters you have to ratchet up the challenge. If the adventure writer set it up where its 20 encounters a day, id say thats not great adventure writing. Though, I dont know the adventure or the GM style and execution so cant say anything for certain.

 

[dave2008]

Ok so then you can't have a set piece encounter while traveling as a guard, unless you have another 3 encounters on that day?

No, if you want to have "set piece encounter*" you would be expected to use the whole day's worth of XP. It is right there in the DMG:

" If it has more deadly encounters, they can handle fewer."

and

"Add together the values of all party members to get a total for the party’s adventuring day. This provides a rough estimate of the adjusted XP value for encounters the party can handle before the characters will need to take a long rest."

*I assume "set piece" means one big encounter for the day.