D&D General 6E But A + Thread

[TwoSix]

Just got Shadow of the Weird Wizard (not sure why, but whatever). The idea of 4 classes, then like 10 branches from there per class appeals to me (I don't love that I have to go back and forth between the three levels of classes, but I get why). This kind of thing seems better than subclasses, but then, maybe it is just the same thing packaged better (IMO).

I like the idea of prestige classes from earlier editions, but they never really worked. I think that could be achievable with more mechanics tied to fiction more, but I don't think WotC (and most fans, frankly) want that.

The 2 Shadow games are the closest game I've seen to my ideal version of D&D.

 

[CreamCloud0]

But exploration and social stuff shouldn't require rule systems! The DM and players are suppose to improv and negotiate their way through it! And having class abilities for it will just encourage people to look at their character sheets to solve problems. They're suppose to use their imaginations instead!

this is sarcasm...right?

 

[Zaukrie]

The 2 Shadow games are the closest game I've seen to my ideal version of D&D.

I should have paid better attention to needing the secrets book to run it.....not that we are likely to ever play, but still, not sure what I was thinking. That said, I used credit, so whatever.

 

[CreamCloud0]

regarding the discussion of 'trunk and leaves' class design metaphor, i'd like to see design allowing much more sharing of leaves between trunks, and even some bits of trunks being turned into leaves, reduce the amount of redundant subclass design and increase the ways you can play a concept, if i can put battlemaster or kensei or oath of vengeance on any of my fighter, rogue, barbarian, monk, ranger, cleric, paladin bard or artificer that's one subclass and nine different ways to spin the concept.

 

[Zaukrie]

regarding the discussion of 'trunk and leaves' class design metaphor, i'd like to see design allowing much more sharing of leaves between trunks, and even some bits of trunks being turned into leaves, reduce the amount of redundant subclass design and increase the ways you can play a concept, if i can put battlemaster or kensei or oath of vengeance on any of my fighter, rogue, barbarian, monk, ranger or paladin that's one subclass and six different ways to spin the concept.

Agreed on applying one leaf to more than one trunk, though it's tricky to design, IMO.

 

[Zardnaar]

That....has...nothing whatsoever to do with what I was talking about???

In 5.0, Champions get one and only one source of bonus damage: They crit when their attack roll die says 19 (more at high level, but my math was focusing <11). That's it. That's their one bonus. Everything else is non-damage, or is versatility, not damage. As a result, on average, the Champion is getting...+[W] once in every 20 attacks that the Battle Master isn't. And this, of course, is assuming the Battle Master never holds onto bonus dice to add to a crit, since in 5.0 those maneuver dice get doubled just like any other dice involved in the crit.

As a result, for the Champion's bonus damage to kick in, on average you need to get 20 attack rolls. That's 9 rounds of combat + 1 action surge, once the Champion is 5th level (which doesn't seem like much of a stretch, considering you can't even be a Champion until 3rd level anyway). So, for the Champ to keep up with a BM, they need to get, on average, a number of bonus crit dice equal to the amount of bonus damage dice the BM gets, per short rest.

Using the best possible option (Greatsword + GWF style), the math works...exactly as I've shown. You need TONS of rounds of combat to make the Champion be even REMOTELY as good as Battle Master.

And then Paladin is simply better than that.

There's an exceptionally good reason the Champion was one of the worst-rated subclasses in 5.0, beaten only by the Berseker (which was actively harmful to itself, as opposed to merely being weak) and Beast Master (which was like the Champion, but more actively obvious about it).

You said it coukd miss on a 19 which is only theoretically.

Otherwise yeah. 5.0 Champion sucked, 5.5 Champions best fighter since 2E.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Or just a scenario.
"Get this message to the King of Gondor across the mountain of giants" is very different depending on if you have the Sending spell or not.

How much of a story would Lord of the Rings been if Gandolf just cast Teleport or Disintegrate?

Or Harry Potter if Locate Creature was available?

So you DO expect every designer to know every spell a player could possibly have.

IMO, a medieval fantasy world shouldn't have to work around someone suddenly pulling out a cell phone.

Modern D&D is hardly even trying to be a medieval fantasy world anymore. More's the pity.

 

[Micah Sweet]

The 2 Shadow games are the closest game I've seen to my ideal version of D&D.

What's the other Shadow game?

 

[Parmandur]

I think the game could get closer, but it needs to ditch the idea of a diegetic rest period (i.e. going to sleep) being a full recharge of everyone's resources. Break that linkage in everyone's expectations, and the game can start exploring more innovative resource structures.

But that's just it, I don't think WotC could break that linkage if they wanted to, and probably they shouldn't. That resource game is just central to the game's core identity.

 

[Chaltab]

What's the other Shadow game?

Shadow of the Weird Wizard