D&D General 6E But A + Thread

[Minigiant]

I could have told you that in post #2

Nah I think the people want 6E.

The issue is the designers and fandom can't get over their own personal biases to facilitate fans not like themselves

 

[kermit4karate]

Nah I think the people want 6E.

The issue is the designers and fandom can't get over their own personal biased to facilitate fans not like themselves

Bingo!

 

[TwoSix]

Oh, I'm quite well aware of it. I call it the "guy at the gym" problem.

If it's not something they can imagine a guy at the gym doing, it's not possible for a Fighter. Even though doing some of the things D&D characters do is literally beyond Olympic Athlete level stuff.

It's a pox upon the field of TTRPGs, and I wish I knew the words to dispel it. I desperately wish I knew them.

In more game mechanical terms, the desire for those players is for nonmagical classes and subclasses to only gain abilities that modify and adjust the normal resolution system (attack rolls and skill checks and damage rolls), not provide new optionality.

They can get more and better attacks, better saves and more hit points, but they can’t get different options.

It’s BS, of course. Every character with more than maybe 4 levels is an inherently magical being.

 

[payn]

Thinking about social and exploration pillar more is pretty exciting. I liked what Paizo did with PF1 alot with traits and their Ultimate Intrigue. The problem, of course, was the gonzo math and +1 hunting nature of the game. Getting a +2 on some skill didnt matter unless you were already stacking that attribute, class, etc... It also meant that a social system would excel for anyone charisma based and put anyone else way behind.

Enter 5E and bounded accuracy. I think you could run all day with these ideas and they would work across the board. Yes, some folks would have an edge based on class and primary attribute, but they wouldn't be the only ones able to participate in the system. Next step would be to expand the 5E skill system. Thats the thing I would start with as it bugs me the most about 5E. It just needs to be more. How to do that while staying Heroquest simple for fans that want that, is the real puzzle for my 5E extension im calling my 6E.

 

[CreamCloud0]

I mean, he factually is not. Not even "roughly".

That's the issue. He's not even close.

He's not in the same ballpark. Your son I'm sure is a cool guy, but can he put on an entire suit of full plate in 5 minutes flat and move in it perfectly? Does he know how to competently and effectively wield every single medieval weapon, and going forwards, is only going to get better with them? It's not just the +2 to hit or w/e, he also needs to know how to load, fire, manuever whilst carrying and so on.

Your idea of what a 1st level Fighter is, is just totally incorrect for 3/4/5E. That's the problem. Not that your son isn't a badass, he probably is a badass. Just an L1 Fighter is a very specific and incredibly highly trained person in all WotC editions of D&D. There are no farmers, no farm boys, no Luke Skywalkers, no callow untrained youths, and so on who are Fighters in WotC D&D unless it's just RPing and ignoring rules (which is fine, it's kind of like reskinning but...).

yeah, for a zero to hero scale that goes from 0 to 100, 5e 1st level characters are already starting out at like, a 15 or 20.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

The issue is the designers and fandom can't get over their own personal biased to facilitate fans not like themselves

I don't want to be mean to designers here, but it is striking that certain aspects of D&D, especially in 3E and 5E (4E was pretty wild) seem like they do reflect the limitations of imagination and relevance on the part of the designers pretty harshly.

3E had LFQW, which was absolutely both intentional and a terrible reflection of the limited thinking of the designers (especially Tweet). It was particularly bad because they managed to make LFQW, which was present but rarely-seen in 1E & 2E into a real front-and-center issue that could become obvious from like, as low as 5th level.

5E it's expressed in the design of specific classes (Sorcerer, Monk, Ranger - no coincidence either that in 2014 these were also the worst-performing classes mechanically, ignoring MC dip shenanigans) and subclasses for all classes, which are absolutely locked into a dated mindset. Some of that was intentional because of the "apology edition" nature of 5E 2014, but I also think a lot of it was just down to not having enough of a vision of the future of D&D at that time, especially not after 4E essentially failed (by WotC's measurements, it had to make $50m/year, something even 3.XE at its height had not IIRC), and I think there was a huge misperception that the more gonzo nature of 4E's classes was the problem, when in fact it was a ton of other factors, not least insulting your own fans and the awful GSL (and frankly 4E was just too early - people weren't "done" with 3.5E - they should have given it another 2-4 years).

It's almost like no-one on the 5E team was even familiar with where fantasy was in 2014 but... that can't have been true, because some of them were involved with 2008's 4E, which had a much more modern vision of fantasy than 5E 2014! So we have to assume intentionality.

And maybe that means it's not so much "personal biases" (though I think they do factor in, especially a lot of decisions re: Rangers/Rogues seem impossible to explain otherwise) as it is misperceptions.

 

[Remathilis]

I want 6e to finally free me from recycling fighter vs wizard debates

 

[AnotherGuy]

i was just thinking 'what if 6e implemented gritty realism timescale as standard but added another shorter rest to fill the between battle space heroic short rests occupied' and realized i think i just reinvented 4e's encounter, daily and ultimate powers

...no wait, the U in AEDU stood for utility didn't it, where did i get ultimate from? but regardless, the idea of lengthening out the adventuring day and adding in another rest type to compensate has potential doesn't it?
i think it would help work against novaing especially if you couldn't get your full rest recovery except in safe havens. i feel like it would align everyone closer to being on a 'short rest recovery'-esc timeline

At that point I'd say play 4e and just fix the issues one had within that system.

With 5e I think it is ok to introduce a Breather to expend HD for hit points but the 1-hour Short Rest works for us particularly because we have tied powers (class features) to HD and the Exhaustion Track.
I suspect people who push Encounter powers (class features) are persons that are either more gamist, prefer a simplified game (less resource tracking) or have not linked powers to a character's reserve energy levels (HD) and Exhaustion Track.

It felt
(i) Obvious from a simulation perspective; and
(ii) Like a missed opportunity

Why did the designers not go this route?
Why introduce types of Rest (Short & Long), keep Energy Reserves (HD) and an Exhaustion Track and not link those to the refreshing of powers (class features)?

It is like building a toilet without a cistern and requiring you to get water from a nearby well to flush.

 

[payn]

I want 6e to finally free me from recycling fighter vs wizard debates

 

[CreamCloud0]

Thinking about social and exploration pillar more is pretty exciting. I liked what Paizo did with PF1 alot with traits and their Ultimate Intrigue. The problem, of course, was the gonzo math and +1 hunting nature of the game. Getting a +2 on some skill didnt matter unless you were already stacking that attribute, class, etc... It also meant that a social system would excel for anyone charisma based and put anyone else way behind.

Enter 5E and bounded accuracy. I think you could run all day with these ideas and they would work across the board. Yes, some folks would have an edge based on class and primary attribute, but they wouldn't be the only ones able to participate in the system. Next step would be to expand the 5E skill system. Thats the thing I would start with as it bugs me the most about 5E. It just needs to be more. How to do that while staying Heroquest simple for fans that want that, is the real puzzle for my 5E extension im calling my 6E.

bounded accuracy was a good idea but i think they were working with too small bonuses numbers, they were too afraid of creating challenges that required high enough DC that some people just couldn't attempt them they ending up falling into the opposite problem and let things become too dictated by the d20 and be entirely too swingy where it's almost as possible for a specialist to fail as it is for a rookie to succeed,

a competent low-mid-level rogue should already be writing off most everyday locks they encounter, they should have something like a +15 so 75% of DC 1-20 locks they don't even need to roll for, and they have this with their expertise (plus ability bonus) but so many more classes ought to have this level of competency and they just don't because expertise is so sparse on the the ground because it was decided to be the 'experts' thing rather than everyone having it and just giving the rogue far more uses.