8 minutes/turn - is that very slow? slow? average?

[Dannyalcatraz]

Warlocks, too. Rogues to a certain extent, as well, but theirs are usually centered on positioning and such.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

I have noticed that strikers - which usually should be the most newbie-friendly classes - tend to have the most conditional damage feats, features, and fiddly bits. Which makes it harder for less experienced players getting directed toward "ranger" or "barbarian" as an introductory class. It's a bit backwards.

If your shtick is ALREADY as basic as "do lots of damage" it does kind of bear elaboration. I mean Slayer is fun, for a few sessions, but it gets old fast. And honestly, while Ranger has HQ to deal with, its really a pretty simple mechanic, tracking it is rather trivial.

 

[skotothalamos]

Get a whiteboard. Put it up on the wall where everyone can see (we put ours on the wall behind the DM, but off to the side so it's not right behind him). List the combatants in initiative order. Use a magnet to keep track of who's up. Track statuses and conditions on the whiteboard, along with damage taken. Everyone is responsible for prompting the next player when their turn is done. Roll to-hit and damage together (or at least have the dice in-hand).

It's what worked for us. Toward late heroic tier, our combats were 3-4 hours long. By the end of Epic, we were finishing fights against dragons in an hour or less.

 

[Balesir]

Get a whiteboard. Put it up on the wall where everyone can see (we put ours on the wall behind the DM, but off to the side so it's not right behind him). List the combatants in initiative order. Use a magnet to keep track of who's up.

That can get messed up when some folks delay or ready actions (which happens a fair bit in our game). Using the magnets to put character/creature names on could work a treat, though.

 

[skotothalamos]

That can get messed up when some folks delay or ready actions (which happens a fair bit in our game). Using the magnets to put character/creature names on could work a treat, though.

Oh yeah, I forgot about that! We ended up getting some business-card magnetic backings from an office supply store for about $6, which each got a PCs name. The monsters still had to be erased and rewritten at times, but delays were much easier with PCs.

 

[Quickleaf]

If your shtick is ALREADY as basic as "do lots of damage" it does kind of bear elaboration. I mean Slayer is fun, for a few sessions, but it gets old fast. And honestly, while Ranger has HQ to deal with, its really a pretty simple mechanic, tracking it is rather trivial.

While tracking conditional damage may be trivial for your group, I routinely observe my players "umming", doing math in their head, and saying "oops I forgot about". Multiple time in a combat, dozens of times in a session. This suggests to me that the tracking of such things is not universally trivial.

For example, the dual-weapon fighter in our group gets conditional modifiers from the following vectors...
Compat Superiority (+4 opportunity attacks)
Bloodsworn (+2 attack after second wind)
Rapid Assault (+2 damage on first attack of an encounter)
Light Blade Expertise (+2 damage from combat advantage)
Steel Action Defense (+4 AC/Ref after action point)
Action Surge (+3 attack with action point)
Hero's Hide Tembo Armor (+2 defenses with action point)
Battle Fury Stance (gain +4 damage but -2 attack)

And that's not including things like Tempest Dance or Heroic Effort. The fighter player is very Rules savvy and has normal length (2 minute) turns. However, even he has moments where he'll forget stuff. Then I look at the slow players whose PCs have just as many if not more conditional modifier vectors, and they are less invested in the rules...and, well, it's pretty easy to see how it's not trivial.

Get a whiteboard. Put it up on the wall where everyone can see (we put ours on the wall behind the DM, but off to the side so it's not right behind him). List the combatants in initiative order. Use a magnet to keep track of who's up. Track statuses and conditions on the whiteboard, along with damage taken. Everyone is responsible for prompting the next player when their turn is done. Roll to-hit and damage together (or at least have the dice in-hand).

It's what worked for us. Toward late heroic tier, our combats were 3-4 hours long. By the end of Epic, we were finishing fights against dragons in an hour or less.

Interesting. That provokes some questions: Does your DM use a screen? Who keeps track of all that whiteboard stuff, another player besides the DM? And how do you denote *whose* effect/condition is effecting a creature, color-coding? Is there some kind of short-hand you guys use to make it not tedious? Can you take a picture?

Thanks, inquiring minds want to know

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

I try to group all my conditional bonuses- such as all those triggered by using action points- on my electronic PC "sheets", but while that helps, it doesn't address all the ones from my powers...or the powers of others.

 

[skotothalamos]

Interesting. That provokes some questions: Does your DM use a screen? Who keeps track of all that whiteboard stuff, another player besides the DM? And how do you denote *whose* effect/condition is effecting a creature, color-coding? Is there some kind of short-hand you guys use to make it not tedious? Can you take a picture?

Thanks, inquiring minds want to know

I'm actually the DM. I did use a screen for that game but I'm thinking of not using for my upcoming game. I keep track of the whiteboard stuff. I used to write "Dazed (se)" or "Dazed (eoWt)" for conditions that were save ends or ended on a player's turn (in this case eoWt meaning "end of Wilik's turn"). After a while, it was even more shorthand, such as "D se" or "D Wt." Ongoing damage would just say "5 fire." I can't remember a single instance of needing to track who controlled the effect. It was either obvious or inconsequential.

We're currently on hiatus, with a new game starting next month. When that happens, I'll get a pic for you.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

While tracking conditional damage may be trivial for your group, I routinely observe my players "umming", doing math in their head, and saying "oops I forgot about". Multiple time in a combat, dozens of times in a session. This suggests to me that the tracking of such things is not universally trivial.

For example, the dual-weapon fighter in our group gets conditional modifiers from the following vectors...
Compat Superiority (+4 opportunity attacks)
Bloodsworn (+2 attack after second wind)
Rapid Assault (+2 damage on first attack of an encounter)
Light Blade Expertise (+2 damage from combat advantage)
Steel Action Defense (+4 AC/Ref after action point)
Action Surge (+3 attack with action point)
Hero's Hide Tembo Armor (+2 defenses with action point)
Battle Fury Stance (gain +4 damage but -2 attack)

And that's not including things like Tempest Dance or Heroic Effort. The fighter player is very Rules savvy and has normal length (2 minute) turns. However, even he has moments where he'll forget stuff. Then I look at the slow players whose PCs have just as many if not more conditional modifier vectors, and they are less invested in the rules...and, well, it's pretty easy to see how it's not trivial.



Interesting. That provokes some questions: Does your DM use a screen? Who keeps track of all that whiteboard stuff, another player besides the DM? And how do you denote *whose* effect/condition is effecting a creature, color-coding? Is there some kind of short-hand you guys use to make it not tedious? Can you take a picture?

Thanks, inquiring minds want to know

I don't mean to imply that EVERYTHING is trivial to track, I just mentined Hunter's Quarry was pretty easy. Its quite possible to have a pretty large number of modifiers, as you've outlined (though IME that fighter is a bit on the heavy side there, but still). I've been saying for 2-3 years that 4e laid on too many of those things, but anyway, it is what it is. I just keep the dial set to 10 on intensity, so the players WANT to move on fast, and use cards for everything, we burn through stacks of them (colored ones would be nifty, though I don't know where to find them anymore). Everyone tracks their own bonuses and the penalties on whatever matters to them, and its not perfect, but it does mostly work. I'd love a cleanup on 4e, but that's sadly a whole other topic...

 

[Quickleaf]

I don't mean to imply that EVERYTHING is trivial to track, I just mentined Hunter's Quarry was pretty easy. Its quite possible to have a pretty large number of modifiers, as you've outlined (though IME that fighter is a bit on the heavy side there, but still). I've been saying for 2-3 years that 4e laid on too many of those things, but anyway, it is what it is. I just keep the dial set to 10 on intensity, so the players WANT to move on fast, and use cards for everything, we burn through stacks of them (colored ones would be nifty, though I don't know where to find them anymore). Everyone tracks their own bonuses and the penalties on whatever matters to them, and its not perfect, but it does mostly work. I'd love a cleanup on 4e, but that's sadly a whole other topic...

Yeah, I'm with you on that.

When you say you "keep the dial set to 10 on intensity, so the players WANT to move fast", can you elaborate? For example, I ran a very dangerous, complex, "intense" boss fight that took about 6 hours all told, with several players were taking a long time despite the dramatic tension. Are you doing something I'm not?