80th-level character - Yiol

[<Anders>]

Hi folks!
This character is only one of many in my epic campaign. Perhaps he illustrates how a typical character at this level looks like, perhaps not.

Please note that the vorpal enhancement in my campaigns don't automatically sever heads, it instead raises the crit. multiplier with +x3, and that Knowledge [war] is a fighter class skill).

Yiol Makrennor: Male human Rgr 12/Ftr 68; Medium-size humanoid (human); HD 12d8+264 plus 68d10+1496; hp 2421; Init +13; Spd 30 ft.; AC 147, touch 40, flat-footed 142; Bas Atk +50; Grp +136; Atk +160 melee (1d10+80 plus 3d6 chaotic/17-20/x5 plus 6d6 chaotic plus 1d6 plus Fort DC 85 or die, +20 chaotic power vorpal adamantine bastardsword); Full Atk +156/+151/+146/+141 melee (1d10+63 plus 3d6 chaotic/17-20/x5 plus 6d6 chaotic plus 1d6 plus Fort DC 85 or die, +20 chaotic power vorpal adamantine bastardsword) and +156/+151/+146 melee (1d10+44 plus 3d6 cold plus 2d6 chaotic/17-20/x5 plus 1d6 plus 6d6 cold plus Fort DC 85 or die, +20 cold blast chaotic vorpal silver bastardsword); SA Favored enemies (lawful outsider +6, dragon +4, undead +2), immune to all energies (ring), Two Weapon Rend 1d10+80, weapon style mastery (close combat); SD animal companion, evasion, fast tracker, wild empathy, woodland stride; AL CN; SV Fort +105, Ref +85, Will +91; Str 80, Dex 20, Con 55, Int 19, Wis 41, Cha 25.

Skills and Feats: Balance +27, Climb +125, Heal +68, Hide +50, Intimidate +109, Jump +57, Knowledge (geography) +38, Knowledge (war) +83, Listen +25, Move Silently +65, Ride +107, Tumble +36, Spot +59, Survival +40 (+42 to avoid hazards), Swim +85;Cleave, Combat Reflexes, Devastating Critical Hit (bastardsword), Dire Charge, Endurance, Epic Leadership, Epic Prowess (x31), Epic Weapon Focus (bastardsword), Epic Weapon Specialization (bastardsword), Exotic Weapon Proficiency (bastardsword), Great Cleave, Great Constitution (x4), Great Strength, Greater Two Weapon Fighting, Greater Weapon Focus (bastardsword), Greater Weapon Specialization (bastardsword), Improved Critical Hit (bastardsword), Improved Initiative, Improved Two Weapon Fighting, Leadership, Mounted Combat, Overwhelming Critical Hit (bastardsword), Power Attack, Superior Initiative, Track, Two Weapon Defense, Two Weapon Fighting, Two Weapon Rend, Weapon Focus (bastardsword), Weapon Specialization (bastardsword).

Ranger Spells Prepared (5/5/5; 6th-level caster; spell save DC 25 + spell level): 1st-camouflage, entangle, naturewatch, pass without trace, speak with animals; 2nd-animal messenger, beast claws, detect law, scent, speak with plants; 3rd-command plants, darkvision, detect favored enemy, neutralize poison, diminish plants.

Possessions: +20 chaotic power vorpal adamantine bastardsword, +20 cold blast chaotic vorpal silver bastardsword, +40 mithral chain shirt, +40 animated heavy fortification heavy steel shield, amulet of epic natural armor +20, cloak of epic resistance [SR 50], bracers of epic health +30, ring of lucky attack +10 (grants a +10 luck bonus to attack rolls), ring of epic protection +20, belt of epic strength +40, boots of speed, ioun stone [epic burnt orange +20], ioun stone [dark green +5] (grants a +5 luck bonus to AC), ioun stone [epic incandescent blue +20], ioun stone [epic pale green +10], epic luck stone +10, ring of universal energy immunity (takes no body slot).

Other Notes: Owns a great county, including a city, a huge army of orc followers and a stone giant Wiz 30 cohort.

 

[Wikidogre]

Possessions: +20 chaotic power vorpal adamantine bastardsword, +20 cold blast chaotic vorpal silver bastardsword, +40 mithral chain shirt, +40 animated heavy fortification heavy steel shield, amulet of epic natural armor +20, cloak of epic resistance [SR 50], bracers of epic health +30, ring of lucky attack +10 (grants a +10 luck bonus to attack rolls), ring of epic protection +20, belt of epic strength +40, boots of speed, ioun stone [epic burnt orange +20], ioun stone [dark green +5] (grants a +5 luck bonus to AC), ioun stone [epic incandescent blue +20], ioun stone [epic pale green +10], epic luck stone +10, ring of universal energy immunity (takes no body slot).

I take it you have house rules on Epic items as well? +40 Armor....

 

[Crothian]

Why such a high climb skill? I would think by this level and with a 30th level wizard cohort, he'd have an item that allows fly.

 

[Nyeshet]

Why such a high climb skill? I would think by this level and with a 30th level wizard cohort, he'd have an item that allows fly.

From the epic SRD:

Climb: The character can climb otherwise unclimbable surfaces.
DC 70: A perfectly smooth flat vertical surface
DC 100: A perfectly smooth flat overhang or ceiling.
Rapid Climbing: A character can climb at his or her speed as a move-equivalent action, or double his or her speed as a full-round action (requiring two Climb checks), but the character takes a -20 penalty on his or her check.

So a +125 Climb would allow the character to take a move equivalent action to climb across a perfectly smooth ceiling or overhang without a roll (since even the lowest roll, 126, is 6 pts higher than the DC 120 needed to accomplish this feat of skill). Look! It's spiderman!

 

[RangerWickett]

Ririburido Pichyarudo

Moniku Deushiru

I don't like to complain, but as a sincere critique, the epic level rules make feats of physical prowess pointless. Sure, your 80th level character can cling to ceilings, even in an antimagic field. But the rest of the time, my 3rd level wizard can do the same thing.

It shouldn't be so much an issue of "how hard is it really to cling to a perfectly smooth ceiling?" because, as we should all know, that's impossible. It should be an issue of "how powerful is it as an ability in a game?" And clinging to a wall or ceiling isn't that big a deal. It should be possible by 10th level, and easy by 20th.

That's my main issue with epic-level stuff. I don't see the point. Nothing really changes but the scale and the numbers. The powers are the same, but now you're great-cleaving through golems instead of goblins. I'd be happier if 20th level characters were as epic as we needed. In this new system, 10th level characters would be able to do the sort of things 20th level characters can do now. You’d get 9th level spells at 9th level, and be able to fight trolls at 3rd. 20th level characters in this new system would have crazy powers, and people would not level up as quickly.

So, how to do this? Do we granulate a lot, with the differences in survivability being drastically greater from level 1 to level 2? Or do we keep high-level characters vulnerable to low-level ones? It’s a lot to think about. I’m just brainstorming out of boredom.

 

[<Anders>]

In Response

I take it you have house rules on Epic items as well? +40 Armor....

Actually yes and no.

A +40 armor has a 55th-caster level, costs 8,000,000 gp (plus half of masterwork cost plus armor cost) and 170,000 XP to create. A standard wizard cannot create this item at 55th level (alone, but see below), but an arcane artisan might (see WOTC homepage for this prestigeclass).

I use some optional rules regarding item creation. First, I allow PCs to share the XP cost for creating an item between each other (they are all loosing XP of course, which I judge as a balancing factor).Second I use a modified craft points-system (from Unearthed Arcana) which makes it possible to create such items without having the player to die of old age before it's finished.

I've discovered that the PCs now actually makes items themselves (it's both faster and cheaper), instead of buying them.

At last I must point out, that 80th-level characters aren't that exceptional in my campaign. The roof is somewhere around 100th-level (the gods themselves have at least 160 levels, instead of 60, as in Deities and Demigods). Thus, the economic system of cities such as Sigil and Union has been adapted to accommodate these super epic characters.

Finally, such items are necessary for the PCs survival. The monsters (all home brewn creations have insight bonuses, profane bonuses, strange bonuses and you name it), the NPCs have epic spells and so on.

But I agree, it is insane. But then again, so am I.

 

[<Anders>]

Well...

That's my main issue with epic-level stuff. I don't see the point. Nothing really changes but the scale and the numbers. The powers are the same, but now you're great-cleaving through golems instead of goblins.

I think you are absolutely correct and absolutely wrong.

The numbers do change, as you pointed out, and the PCs might cleave beefier monsters instead of punier ones. In actuality, combat is combat, even at super epic levels, but it is way more complicated and in many ways more tense and fun. We are talking fights in the sky mounted on roaring colossal paragon dragons and flying ships with ballista bolts of augmented alchemist's fire, armies clashing against each other while the epic characters cancel each others area spells out to save the own side, wuxia-like fights where people almost "fly" around, and yes "climbing on walls upside down" and such.

So you are right about that.

But then on the actual roleplaying scene, everything is diffirent. You are now managing or taking part of the destinies of nations, of major religions and of gods. The complexity of the intrigues involved cannot simply be sublimed into single scentences, as you could with lower level ones. In some of my games there are even adventures where there are no need to flip up that heroic super artefact magic weapon, since fighting is no longer an issue. Skills take more place in my campaign, especially Bluff, Diplomacy, Gather Information, Knowledge (all of them), and Sense Motive. The danger that the PCs faces aren't just the creepy hordes of unimaginable monsters, but the silver-tongued epic infiltrator, turning the nations ministers into fanatical Tiamatcultists with the non-dispellable skill Diplomacy. The dragon Bluffs you into retreating all the while he manipulates the entire underground criminal activity.

The whole multiverse is involved in this kind of game.

So it is not like low level gaming, in light of that.

 

[Wrahn]

I have found at the near epic and epic levels combat become insanely complex. As an example, we were 19th level facing off against an evil necromancer (who was more than likely epic) and his cronies who for various reasons were trying to ressurect the ex-leader of the empire where we were from whom most people believed to be a prophet, but we knew to be an evil lich. Unfortunately his cronies included priestesses to the goddess of magic who specialized in counterspells, a bunch of anti-magical monk type people, some variant arcane angels, his apprentices, several golems and summoned help.

This combat took near 6 hours real time, weaving in and out of pillars to keep out of the line of sight of the counterspell people. When the necromancer actually managed to get timestop off, we thought we were all dead, but because he had been blinded, he couldn't see where to cast, ended up costing us our mooks and doing damage to us, but over all we did all right (the end of the combat featured me, running my hasted butt away from a spell eating, energy draining mist creature that was immune to magic, while the rest of the party beat on the necromancer who had a spell on him which prevented his death).

Most of the low level combats I have been in, never really attained this level of complexity, or drama. It isn't cleaving bigger monsters, it is compensating for the unknown, usually grossly over powered things we were fighting and managing to pull it off.

Of course we weren't playing at 80th level either (or 100th) Those levels of play epic spellcasting is at it's full power and you will have no clue what so ever what incredibly broken thing the GM has up his sleeve.

Sounds like fun.

 

[<Anders>]

Complex fighting

I have found at the near epic and epic levels combat become insanely complex........This combat took near 6 hours real time

A recent combat encouter took about two days of playing (with rest for sleep and meals; this was a marathon game). Six players (different levels, from 60th- to 80th-level) and a large army of epic level fiends.

We thought it would never end.

Sounds like fun.

You bet.

 

[Jolly Giant]

Sounds like great fun, Anders! My campaign has only gotten to level 30 so far, but we've sure had some looong combat session. I think the longest so far clocked in at 16 hours, but then there had already been a couple of sessions in which the PCs did very little but gather info on their opponents and prepare for the big fight...

Epic level campaigns can be great fun, if the DM is prepared to put in the effort!