A 10 level Prestige Class that gets 1d6 Sneak Attack damage every level: Unbalanced?

[Rystil Arden]

This is our biggest disagreement. The rogue and its various ways to be played mean so much more than 'SA Machine' to me. They receive the highest skill bonus in the game with the biggest skill list, they are the only class to receive both "defensive" abilities in Evasion and Uncanny Dodge, and at higher levels they are even more mutable with their Special Abilities. They also have the distinction of having a unique ability in trap disarming.

I am confounded that someone would confuse an updated 'backstab' mechanic for the 'area of the core class's focus' which is clearly: Skills. A rogue lives and dies by his skills. Since D&D is generally a game of as much combat as anything else, the designers needed a way to allow them to contribute to fights. In 2e there was backstab, with huge multipliers to your damage, and it was good. In 3e they made Sneak Attack, which is essentially a more broad application of Backstab, and it was also good. However, I have made/seen many rogues who wish that Sneak Attack was an interchangable part of the class because some (many?) rogues have no reason to have an ability like Sneak Attack. On the other hand, a PrC like the Assasin has every reason to have that, and (imo) moreso than the core class Rogue.

Technik

And your assassin can do all of these things, particularly if he takes the stealth path (Granted he's forced in his choices for his three special ability, but HIPS is arguably better for a stealth-rogue than any of the ones you didn't give, and if he really wants the other rogue special, he can go back and take up to 10 in Rogue) because he already has five levels in Rogue. He's equivalent to the rogue at everything except that he is missing out on approximately 2 skill points per level (why 2 and not 4? Because he basically gets a free rank in Intimidate and Sense Motive every level) and Improved Uncanny Dodge (although he can take 3 more levels in Rogue to pick this up, or even sacrifice HIPS if he really wants it), and he gets 2d6 additional Sneak Attack for his trouble, not to mention the equivalent of four epic feats at once at level 10 (a huge gain). I had a Player once who made something called the "Incantrix Test." The Incantrix test states that anything that gives you more epic feats than Incantrix before becoming epic without appreciable loss is overpowered as a PrC because Incantrix is at best on the edge of the brink. This assassin PrC gives 6 epic feat equivalents (2d6 SA more than a Rogue, and 4 typeless stat boosts).

 

[CRGreathouse]

I had a Player once who made something called the "Incantrix Test." The Incantrix test states that anything that gives you more epic feats than Incantrix before becoming epic without appreciable loss is overpowered as a PrC because Incantrix is at best on the edge of the brink. This assassin PrC gives 6 epic feat equivalents (2d6 SA more than a Rogue, and 4 typeless stat boosts).

+2d6 sneak attack and +2 to two mental stats (for the assassin) beyond the rogue may well be overpowered, but I don't think it's as overpowered as the Incantrix, which I'd never consider allowing in my game.

 

[Nifft]

This assassin PrC gives 6 epic feat equivalents (2d6 SA more than a Rogue, and 4 typeless stat boosts).

Right. The Half-Elf Paragon is clearly broken because it allows up to four epic feat equivalents by level 6. A +2 sword is clearly broken because it's got a +2 bonus to hit AND DAMAGE, and that's stronger than an epic feat (epic weapon focus). Hyperbolize at your own risk.

However, I'm glad you've shifted your argument away from extra sneak attack being overpowered, and started talking about the parts of the PrC that are actually in need of fixing.

Since you seem to understand that we're talking about +7d6 (rather than +10d6), wouldn't it be a nice act of good faith to correct the thread title?

And wouldn't it be another nice act of good faith to focus on the issue at hand -- how to make a good assassin that's based around Sneak Attack, rather than the silly Death Attack mechanic?

Aside from calling +1d6 damage an Epic Feat, I'm not seeing any real arguments about this core issue -- lots of noise about other aspects of the specific class above, which may indeed be overpowered, but nothing about the mechanic allegedly in dispute.

Got some numbers, maybe?

-- N

 

[Technik4]

Oy Vey

(Granted he's forced in his choices for his three special ability, but HIPS is arguably better for a stealth-rogue than any of the ones you didn't give, and if he really wants the other rogue special, he can go back and take up to 10 in Rogue) because he already has five levels in Rogue.

You're so right. At level 15 after presumably being a Rog5/Ass10 he can go back to rogue and eventually get his one special ability, at level 20. Nevermind that this PrC allows the assasin class (a rather general PrC) to be taken in the following combinations:

Rog10/Als10
Rog5/Ftr5/Als10
Rog5/Sor5/Als10
Rgr10/Als10
Mnk12/Als8

Clr15/Als5
Wiz15/Als5
Rog16/Als4

With some favorable outcome. A cleric or wizard would almost never choose the class as printed in the DMG, yet its fairly sensible to agree that these characters could benefit by a more modular PrC.

He's equivalent to the rogue at everything except that he is missing out on approximately 2 skill points per level (why 2 and not 4? Because he basically gets a free rank in Intimidate and Sense Motive every level)...

I didn't think an obvious flavor issue would even come up, but apparantly it has. Should I specify that the Sense Motive bonus only applies in non-combat situations? The point is that after a certain point they radiate power from their presence because they have snuffed out lives, presumably of their own kind (assasinating illithids or beholders doesn't really strike me as 'assasinations'). Anyway, its inherently not as good as a free rank because it only applies to creatures of your type, no intimidating monsters, and no reading outsiders' motives.

...and Improved Uncanny Dodge (although he can take 3 more levels in Rogue to pick this up, or even sacrifice HIPS if he really wants it), and he gets 2d6 additional Sneak Attack for his trouble...

For his trouble? This is a specialized PrC, Sneak Attack being the specialization. Its not the gravy on the potatoes, it IS the potatoes. The entire point of the Melee path was as an incentive to characters who didn't already have Uncanny Dodge. Again, these 3 more pick-up-able levels are post level 15, which means we are talking about characters that are high enough level to have a myriad of strange and powerful abilities.

...not to mention the equivalent of four epic feats at once at level 10 (a huge gain).

As CRGreathouse pointed out, its not really the equivalent of 4 epic feats to give a combat character +2 to a mental skill (esp if you leave out the one that could give a bonus to a save, which I did). As I pointed out, I don't own the ELH - bringing up that its equivalent to an epic feat is meaningless to me. In my opinion, its a perfectly suitable PrC bonus (which I have seen in other PrCs).

(2d6 SA more than a Rogue, and 4 typeless stat boosts).

"Predator's Mien- You gain +2 charisma or +2 intelligence which stacks like the ability bonuses you get every 4 levels. This bonus reflects the pinnacle of your training, which can be manifest as greater intellect (usually with commensurate ego) or greater confidence (also arrogance)."

Emphasis mine. You get one or the other depending on how you plan your assasinations, not both. They are debatably the weakest stats in the game, especially consider the nature of this character (already 15th level) - its a +1 bonus to a subset of skills, a certain ability roll, and, if you chose Int, you get 5 more skill points (over the next 5 levels). Abuse? Nah, its just a nice incentive to finish the PrC.

I think the comparison to Incantrix is absurd. Once again:

A rogue or other PrC-inclined character is giving up skill points and special abilities for 2 extra SA die and some incidental bonuses. A character who wants a rogue special ability will probably not get it until level 19 or 20, as opposed to the straight rogue who will have 4 SA by level 19.

The class cannot be cherry-picked any easier than the current Assasin PrC. Over the first 5 levels you get 3 SA dice. To 'abuse' the class you have to commit to it.

2 SA is approx 7 damage not every hit, but every Sneak Attack. Not every hit a rogue or assasin makes will be a Sneak Attack. Further, (and perhaps this is belaboring an obvious point) giving an increased rate of Sneak Attack acquisition is not equal to or comprable to giving +2 spellcasting in one level. Spellcasting is far more variable when it comes to power since it affects your old spells (increased damage, duration, range, etc) and grants you new spells - another SA die, in most situations, is another 3.5 damage when you qualify for a sneak attack. Hence, does that example really need to come up again?


Technik

 

[Rystil Arden]

You know what? You want to put a notably overpowered and easily qualifiable PrC into your game? Then do it. You either vastly undervalue the power of Sneak Attack, or, far more likely since you seem like a very sensible person, you play in a game that is different from the rest of ours where Sneak Attack isn't as important. As you can see from the responses of everyone except Nifft, even when you lowered the SA number to 7, there is an overwhelming consensus that the class is overpowered. Even the great ooze has spoken. The problem is that based on playing with Sneak Attack in our games and understanding the value of additional Sneak Attack in our own contexts, we have been able to make a value judgment with which you refuse to agree (so I think maybe its different in your campaign). So I guess you can agree to disagree with the rest of us on this at your leisure, and I don't know about the rest of everyone, but I have grown sick of trying to discuss this, mostly not by any fault of yours but because of the ad hominems flying from the peanut gallery (which is likely the intent, but I simply don't care).

 

[Nifft]

I have grown sick of trying to discuss this, mostly not by any fault of yours but because of the ad hominems flying from the peanut gallery (which is likely the intent, but I simply don't care).

Just so we're all straight, you:
1/ started a poll to publically "out" this class;
2/ wrote down some numbers wrong;
3/ didn't correct those numbers; and
4/ when you made a mistake & were called on it, got huffy & left.

Some of the above could be construed as rude on your part.

Correcting someone is NOT an ad hominem attack, though I know it feels icky -- many people are able to deal with criticisim without permanent harm. People on the Internet even!

Anyway, back to the core issue: is MORE SNEAK ATTACK than the Rogue gets possible to balance? I say yes. Is it balanced here? Not sure -- been too busy fending off hyperbolic sillyness.

-- N

 

[Seeten]

Since we're in the house rules forum, I'd happily allow a straight rogue to take HIPS as a Rogue Special Ability.

 

[Rystil Arden]

Just so we're all straight, you:
1/ started a poll to publically "out" this class;
2/ wrote down some numbers wrong;
3/ didn't correct those numbers; and
4/ when you made a mistake & were called on it, got huffy & left.

Now that I'm done talking about the assassin, I'm going to address your 4 numbered ad hominem attacks (but not your straw man that "Correcting someone is not an ad hominem" because I choose to assume that you are twisting your own statements on purpose to be rude, rather than that you are oblivious to the fact that over 50% of your statements in both threads have been ad hominems)

1) I found on the other thread that I could not reasonably talk to you about the fact that the assassin there was unbalanced because you were too busy making ad hominems, and since nobody seemed to believe that 10d6 Sneak Attack being unbalanced was a "Duh" rather than even a debatable issue, I made a poll to prove it.

2) You have either forgotten the original thread completely, or, more likely, you are attempting to be obnoxious. The original assassin did get Sneak Attack all 10 levels if he wanted, and you (and the more reasonable creator Technik4) refused to consider it unbalanced until you saw the results of the poll, at which point Technik admitted it was unbalanced in the other thread (only after though!) and cut the Sneak Attack down.

3) There was nothing to correct in the poll's numbers. The poll's numbers were not a mistake. Running back from your original argument (which I'll admit was a good idea since it was much farther out there) may be a good rhetorical argument, but then claiming that you never held that viewpoint is pretty easy to disprove online.

4) I left because you are making nasty and unfounded ad hominem attacks and ignore all reason. I'm not sure why I'm bothering. The person who should be upset about your behaviour is technik4, with whom I was having a discussion.

I'm sure based on your childish namecalling attitude in the past that you are going to want to have the last word and make up some more namecalling, so be my guest. I'm only writing this in the off chance that I was wrong and you were actually oblivious to the fact that your statements have been slanderous (that is, malicious and false, although I suppose they might be libel since they're written). I've seen coincidences before where this was indeed the case, in which case, I preemptively apologise. Its happened on enough occasions that I'm pretty sure its no coincidence.

 

[Nifft]

ad hominem

I don't think that means what I think you think that means. (Seriously. Look it up.)

Hope that helps, have a nice day!

-- N

 

[Technik4]

ou want to put a notably overpowered and easily qualifiable PrC into your game? Then do it.

Aye, I don't have a problem using it in my game. And, for what its worth, thanks for creating this poll (even though I consider it a silly way to prove someone wrong/right, I think the comments helped boil the class down).

My only peeve is that usually if something is so blatantly overpowered people make examples to show it. Like, "the mystic theurge is so overpowered - look at what I can do [Hypothetical Character Follows]". No one attempted to do that, they just looked at the numbers and declared them overpowered. Granted, you did have something like this happen in a game of yours, but your comments seemed to suggest that because of the cherry-picking, the character did not really become more powerful than they should have (they just managed to twink SA damage). Personally, I tried to do this in a lot of ways and found that generally:

-This PrC is not abusable for the first 5 levels. In fact, its a nice way for evil spellcasters to (logically) get some SA dice. The only irritation was that spellcasters can take 1 level, get spellcasting and never come back. This is mollified because, they didnt really get many bonuses (poison-use and more skills).

-While the PrC can result in as many as 3 more SA dice than the one found in the DMG, that version was almost never worth going to level 10. A Rog11/Ass9 is > Rog10/Ass10, which does not make sense to me.

-The only method of getting the extra SA dice is most useful to someone who does not already have Uncanny Dodge (Non-Rogue). This means multiclass Ftr/Rog, Rgrs, etc end up with higher SA 'than they should' (or would have if they would have gotten rogue levels) if they get more than 5 levels.

Also, at high levels (10+, when this begins to outpace the Rogue) another 2 dice of SA damage is not that damaging to a game (clearly, imo).

Thanks for everyone who has contributed.

Technik