A 10 level Prestige Class that gets 1d6 Sneak Attack damage every level: Unbalanced?

[Viktyr Gehrig]

I do not think any class which grants more than 1/2 level in Sneak Attack can be properly balanced-- use of PrC dipping to get more than an extra die or two is bad enough.

I really think that the Rogue progression should be the upper limit of Sneak Attack. I'm willing to accept that Rogue 10/Assassin 10 picks up an extra die, mainly because it's only a single extra die and it's a quirk of the acquisition rate.

As far as I'm concerned, I don't think a special Assassin class is necessary. Any class can function as an assassin, and most classes can accept money for acting as an assassin. Death Attack is, in my opinion, a poor mechanism for the ability to kill people with a single blow-- that is what Sneak Attack is for.

This leaves Assassin spellcasting, which many people disagree with, and Poison Use, which should either be a feat, or should not require a feat. (Poisoning a blade is not difficult, even while taking precautions. I'm certainly no Assassin.)

 

[zeo_evil]

Quick answer no. Long answer even more no. No class should build faster than a rogue. The rogue/assassin thing is acceptable. Don't forget to add an extra die to your sneak attack damage is an epic feat.

 

[Technik4]

I guess my bafflement comes from the following:

Rog6: +3 SA
Rog5/Alt.Ass1: +3 SA

Rog7: +4 SA
Rog5/Alt.Ass2: +4 SA

Rog8: +4 SA
Rog5/Alt.Ass3: +5 SA

Rog9: +5 SA
Rog5/Alt.Ass4: +6 SA

Rog10: +5 SA, Special Ability
Rog5/Alt.Ass5: +6 SA

Rog11: +6 SA
Rog5/Alt.Ass6: +7 SA

Rog12: +6 SA
Rog5/Alt.Ass7: +8 SA

Rog13: +7 SA, Special Ability
Rog5/Alt.Ass8: +9 SA

Rog14: +7 SA
Rog5/Alt.Ass9: +9 SA

Rog15: +8 SA
Rog5/Alt.Ass10: +10 SA

My point is, you have to stay in the proposed PrC for 7 levels to outpace the rogue by 2 SA dice. For 6 levels you will only have 2 iterative attacks and have 1 extra SA die (which is 3.5 extra damage, so maybe 7 more damage in a round than a rogue). For those 6 levels the rogue is pumping up his skills points (24 more points) and at 5th he gets a Special Ability (which could be a feat, or if the rogue liked SA, Crippling Strike).

I guess I just don't see the disconnect. I've played 3E, I've played rogues, I've DM'd other peoples' rogues: 1 or 2 SA dice over 10 levels is not a huge difference. The fact is if the rogue can get his sneaks in every round, the baddie is going down - if the alt.assasin can get in slightly stronger SA, he's still going down, marginally faster.

I would be more appalled about an Assasin class that let you bypass the inherent limitations of SA damage, than a specialized class (which is centered around killing things, unlike the Rogue). People even agree that generally Death Attack is silly, and SA is how Assasins should kill things. I totally agree, which is why a PrC like the Assasin should get more SA dice.

Further, I entirely agree that any class can function as an Assasin, which is the very reason the pre-reqs are (and should be) so "easy". Really, even the disguise bit doesn't make much sense, as not necessarily every Assasin works with disguises (but every Assasin kills people). I do think having ridiculous requirements (100+ people) would be silly. Most D&D campaigns (in my experience) have no problem letting a 16-year old squire attain high levels in just over a couple years. While certain "assasins" may take to genocide over homicide, the typical meidevil 'hitman' probably only killed certain higher-ups: lords, aristocracy, and other agents of foreign powers.

I don't have the Epic Level Handbook, but I remember hearing about far better epic feats than just +1 SA (your SA damage affects them the next turn, optional ways to lower your SA damage in exchange for mechanical benefits, etc).

Finally, if you are the type of DM which allows PrC-dipping to let your players get more SA than a rogue, what is the problem with a PrC which takes that concept and allows them to simply get more, over time?

Technik

 

[Rystil Arden]

The answer to your last question is easy: dipping too much kills the Base Attack Bonus and cripples Fort and Will saves, the BAB loss counteracts the Sneak Attack gain, but a PrC that does it for you (unless it has Wizard BAB) makes it too easy with no real price (compared to dipping).

 

[Crothian]

It is also quite a bit harder to qualify for ten different prestige classes or even 5 different ones, then one prestige class. Dipping into a bunch of prestige classes has a cost of needing all sorts of feats, skill points, etc.

 

[Nifft]

Who needs a bunch of PrCs to get good Sneak Attack damage?

1) 1-3 levels of Featless Fighter variant from UA (full BAB, d10 HP, +1d6 SA at 1st level and +1d6/2 levels thereafter)

2) 2 levels of variant Ranger (+2 BAB, good saves, 6 sp/level, +1d6 SA at 2nd, 6th and 11th levels)

3) 1 level of Spellthief (good Will save, +1d6 SA)

4) 1 level of Psychic Rogue (good Reflex save, +1d6 SA)

5) Ninja? Scout?

C'mon, people. It's just not that big a deal for a focused PrC to surpass a Core class in the area of its focus.

-- N

 

[Rystil Arden]

Who needs a bunch of PrCs to get good Sneak Attack damage?

1) 1-3 levels of Featless Fighter variant from UA (full BAB, d10 HP, +1d6 SA at 1st level and +1d6/2 levels thereafter)

2) 2 levels of variant Ranger (+2 BAB, good saves, 6 sp/level, +1d6 SA at 2nd, 6th and 11th levels)

3) 1 level of Spellthief (good Will save, +1d6 SA)

4) 1 level of Psychic Rogue (good Reflex save, +1d6 SA)

5) Ninja? Scout?

C'mon, people. It's just not that big a deal for a focused PrC to surpass a Core class in the area of its focus.

-- N

C'mon, people. It's just not that big a deal for a focused PrC to surpass a Core class in the area of its focus.

Its only through context that we discover that your use of the word "its" before focus is meant to describe the PrC's focus, but I'd like to point out that a PrC shouldn't surpass a Core class in the area of the core class's focus.

As for your example, you've used several heavy variants and optional core classes, some of which I don't even know from where they come. Of the ones I do know, which include the Sneak Attack fighter, I have yet to meet a DM who allowed that variant (myself included). And the Ninja and Scout abilities aren't sneak attack (they're significantly worse, actually)...

 

[Technik4]

...in the area of the core class's focus.

This is our biggest disagreement. The rogue and its various ways to be played mean so much more than 'SA Machine' to me. They receive the highest skill bonus in the game with the biggest skill list, they are the only class to receive both "defensive" abilities in Evasion and Uncanny Dodge, and at higher levels they are even more mutable with their Special Abilities. They also have the distinction of having a unique ability in trap disarming.

I am confounded that someone would confuse an updated 'backstab' mechanic for the 'area of the core class's focus' which is clearly: Skills. A rogue lives and dies by his skills. Since D&D is generally a game of as much combat as anything else, the designers needed a way to allow them to contribute to fights. In 2e there was backstab, with huge multipliers to your damage, and it was good. In 3e they made Sneak Attack, which is essentially a more broad application of Backstab, and it was also good. However, I have made/seen many rogues who wish that Sneak Attack was an interchangable part of the class because some (many?) rogues have no reason to have an ability like Sneak Attack. On the other hand, a PrC like the Assasin has every reason to have that, and (imo) moreso than the core class Rogue.

Technik

 

[Nifft]

Its only through context that we discover that your use of the word "its" before focus is meant to describe the PrC's focus, but I'd like to point out that a PrC shouldn't surpass a Core class in the area of the core class's focus.

Since you bring up the word "its"... oh, never mind.

Content-wise, are you claiming that Core classes are not particularly general, and that PrCs should NOT be more focused than Core classes? For example, that no PrC should ever give more than 1 bonus Feat over 2 levels?

Are you claiming that the Rogue is focused on combat?

-- N

 

[Rystil Arden]

Since you bring up the word "its"... oh, never mind.

Content-wise, are you claiming that Core classes are not particularly general, and that PrCs should NOT be more focused than Core classes? For example, that no PrC should ever give more than 1 bonus Feat over 2 levels?

Are you claiming that the Rogue is focused on combat?

-- N

For example, that no PrC should ever give more than 1 bonus Feat over 2 levels?

Yes. I can confidently state that it would be pretty overpowered to do this except in extreme situations (Note: I consider the BoED PrC that gives 3 bonus feats that must be Exalted but requires a crummy organisation feat and another exalted feat and is only three levels to be an extreme situation, especially since you basically lose a feat on the worthless requirement feat, so you only really gain 2 feats).

Similarly, and more apropos since bonus feat sets can be tweaked differently from a fighter by allowing different (and smaller) sets of bonus feats, a PrC that gave "+2 to level of existing spellcasting class" under the Spellcasting column would be overpowered unless you gimped some of its other areas into nigh-unplayability.