D&D 5E A 10-Level Variant for 5E for review and work

[DND_Reborn]

Thanks for all the feedback! Awesome stuff.

Ok, first set of features:

I like the aspect of choosing saving throws to gain half-proficiency in. I think the only concern I have with this is that it devalues the monk's feature to gain proficiency in all saving throws, and characters who really want a particular saving throw that their class doesn't provide (e.g., casters with CON) are going to be torn between taking Resilient CON early and then losing out on the big benefit of this feature, or waiting and having a rough time with that save before then. What would you think about allowing this half proficiency to stack with proficiency from another source (up to a max of 1.5x proficiency)? It sounds strong, but it's a sizeable investment to get there, and it's still weaker than the Paladin's bonus to all saves

I'm not worried about devaluing the monk's feature. At best, a cleric with investiture and the Resilient feat could have five saves, which would be very strong but only at higher levels with Resilient. Most other classes will get 3 to 4.

I wouldn't be opposed to 1.5x proficiency if someone applied the 1/2 prof save gained later on to one of their initial save proficiencies. If you really wanted to be that good, then that would be up to the player. Personally, I play more diversified myself, but others like to be super-focused.

Barbarian:

Unfaltering Stamina: Love it. Very on-theme; not overly powerful, but certainly useful. Makes berserker a little more viable.

Move in the Wild: Nice. Removes the temptation to spend a rage just to get advantage on high stakes climbs or jumps.

Revealing Sight: A cool ability, but I'm not sure what it has to do with being a barbarian. It's sort of a higher level, weaker version of the warlock invocation Eldritch Sight. Something should go in this level since Brutal Critical doesn't seem like enough for a whole level... but I'm not sure this is it.

I forgot to include swim with Move in the Wild. I'll add it later.

Revealing Sight mirrors more the feel of the AD&D Unearthed Arcana barbarian. I like the concept of barbarians shunning magic more than embracing it. That's my preference so I tried to tie it back to the old barbarian concept.

What about something like

"Primal Intuition: You have an instinctive ability to sense that something is off when your senses conflict. You gain proficiency in Insight if you do not have it already. If you are already proficient, you add one and a half times your proficiency bonus (round down) to all Wisdom (Insight) checks. Whenever you make a Wisdom (Insight) check to assess whether another creature is hiding hostile intentions, you can treat any roll of 9 or lower as a 10. In addition, when a illusion that affects a living creature would normally require an Intelligence (Investigation) check to detect its presence, you can choose to make a Wisdom (Insight) check instead."

Something like this would work, sure, or might make a nice feature for the Ranger class. I'll add it to my notes and see if I want to use it.

Magic Weapons + Magic Resistance: I see why you put this here given the next feature, since you're trying to push barbarians away from using actual magic weapons, but... it's not clear why barbarians would suddenly start channeling magic through all their weapon attacks. I think this ends up doing the opposite of what you were going for, in trying to keep barbarians a "non-magical" class.

They don't "channel" magic. Think of it more as an "anti-magical aura" that allows the barbarian to harm creatures which require magical weapons. Like their Magic Resistance feature, if they associate too much with magic, their powers suffer sort of. Again, this is just following the old AD&D barbarian.

For 6th level if you are looking for an offensive boost, how about adding some sort of shove rider to your weapon strikes? "You can put extra force behind your weapon attacks. Once per turn when you hit another creature with a melee weapon attack, you can make a Strength (Athletics) check, contested by the creatures Strength (Athletics) or Dexterity (Acrobatics) (its choice). If you win the contest you can shove the creature 5' away from you or knock it prone." You can of course do this normally by spending an attack; but this lets you do it after you hit with a weapon.

For 8th level how about something like: "Durable Instincts: While raging, the link between your natural instincts and you behavior becomes more difficult to interrupt. You have advantage on saving throws against Intelligence, Charisma and Wisdom saving throws to resist effects that would compel you to act contrary to your normal behavior." (This steps a little bit on the berserker's charm+fright immunity though, so might need tweaking).

The Powerful Strike, let's call it, might work well as a bonus action?

Powerful Strike
Your rage allows you to use your might to topple your foes. Beginning at 6th level, if you successful hit a creature with a melee weapon attack while raging, you can use your bonus action to shove the creature 5 feet away from you or knock it prone. The target must make a Strength saving throw or Dexterity saving throw (its choice) with a DC equal to 8 + your proficiency bonus + your Strength modifier.

Durable Instincts
Your rage blocks off your mind from outside influence, making attempts to influence or control you difficult. While raging, you have advantage on saving throws against spells and effects that charm or dominate you. In addition, Persuasion and Intimidation checks made against you while you are raging have disadvantage.

Pretty close to your ideas. What do you think?

 

[DND_Reborn]

Bard:

Taunting jibe is an interesting ability, and fills in a definite weakness that bards have; it's nice that it uses a separate pool of resources from bardic inspiration, and having it based on intimidation checks is a cool twist. It does otherwise seem a lot like cutting words, though I guess it can stack with it (it also stacks with Sword Bard's defensive flourish).

Compared to the Shield spell, it's limited in that it only works on one target, and you have to decide to use it in advance rather than waiting until it would make a difference, but CHA mod per short rest is enough uses that this is probably something you would wind up doing every round if you're not doing something else with your bonus action, so the fact that you have to pre-use it isn't that much of a limitation.

On balance I think it's strong, but probably ok given that it's the only thing you're giving them, but playtesting is needed.

You also moved Expertise back to level 3 (and weakened it), and moved Font of Inspiration back to level 4. I'd put those back at level 2 and level 3, respectively, analogous to where they'd be in the 20 level progression. It's kind of rough trying to stretch those inspiration uses throughout the whole day before getting Font of Inspiration. Maybe then move Taunting Jibe to 4th. I'm OK with having the second Expertise at 6th, since level 5 is such a huge level as it is. (I don't know why they put soooo many things at level 10 for bards)

8th level is empty right now. Song of Rest scaling is pretty unexciting; on top of which, 8th level spells are not as big as 7th or 9th. You could maybe give some kind of scaling to Taunting Jibe. Maybe it works on all creatures that can hear you, and they no longer need to understand you?

I like Taunting Jibe even though originally I planned on it being a Rogue feature, and it works better for Bard. Of course, everything will need to be playtested if I ever get there.

Moving the features around was to try to fill in gaps and not overload a level due to compressing two levels into one. I'll review your ideas for rearranging the order of things. And an update to Taunting Jibe might work well at higher levels.

As you probably know, I don't play Bards, don't really care for them, and I think they have enough features with all the stuff they get plus spellcasting. But, I am not adverse to giving them things that fit the flavor.

 

[dave2008]

I like the how you have squished the classes down to 10 levels; however, I agree with others I personally wouldn't make so many other changes. I think the game would play better without the proficiency boost and without the AC boost, without increasing HP, and without revising the level you gain spells. I would essentially make spells of higher levels rituals.

 

[DND_Reborn]

Cleric:

Investiture strikes me as a little uneven. Several subclasses already get martial weapons and even more get heavy armor, so these classes are disincentivized to pick Martial Training, which is a bit weird, since to the extent that these subclasses are the most likely to make weapon attacks, they get the most out of the rest of the feature (though I guess anybody can bless a weapon for someone else). I think heavy armor alone is probably worth more than the skill/tool/language proficiencies granted by Scholastic Training.

The blessed weapon feels pretty balanced with the +1 to saves: the weapon is likely to be used more early on, but once most people have other magic weapons, it loses utility, whereas the +1 to saves will be used less often but never goes out of style.

I might just remove the weapon and armor proficiencies from Martial Training, rename the feature, and give both choices a skill proficiency from a tailored list: the "combat" one gets their choice of Athletics, Intimidation, or Persuasion, say, along with proficiency in a suitable tool; the "scholar" one gets their choice of Arcana, History, Nature, or Religion, along with a language.

Well, part of the reason for Martial Training is, IMO, most of the domains that gained Heavy Armor should never have gotten it. I agree with the other thread about how too much of Cleric smacks of prior versions, instead of a more generic "Priest."

Changing it to more physical skills might work ok. I'll give it some thought as well. I know there was a lot of overlap with domains that already grant heavy armor and martial weapons, but there are domains that don't.

Ward of Faith: I like this ability, though it is the same thing that Light Clerics get. I guess now Light Clerics get double the uses?

LOL! I didn't even realize it was the same. I'll probably come up with something else for Ward of Faith.

Watched Over: The advantage on saving throw aspect is nice, and makes sense for a cleric, though the wording is ambiguous: is it one roll, or all rolls for one ability? I assume the latter. Commune is already a ritual though, so giving one free casting per day is pretty minor: it saves a prep slot and 10 minutes, I guess; but Clerics have a lot of prep slots, and how often will 10 minutes matter when you're asking your god three questions?

I would suggest splitting this into two features, one at 6th and one at 8th. At 6th, give the "advantage on one saving throw" aspect. At 8th replace the Commune casting either with either a non-ritual spell (your choice of Legend Lore or Scrying, maybe?), or maybe give an intermediate scaling of Divine Intervention.

I'll work on the wording. I meant one saving throw roll, not ability. Granting it on all saves for one ability is too much IMO. Not needed to prepare Commune is nice, even though it is a ritual. I've made some notes on the other suggestions as well so thanks!

 

[DND_Reborn]

I like the how you have squished the classes down to 10 levels; however, I agree with others I personally wouldn't make so many other changes. I think the game would play better without the proficiency boost and without the AC boost, without increasing HP, and without revising the level you gain spells. I would essentially make spells of higher levels rituals.

Thanks, but without the other chances, what would be the point?

By not scaling spells to match, casters lose power and non-casters gain more features quickly.

For a low-HP model, I do like the idea in regular d20 of making HP = HD roll + CON + one other ability. You could award HP every other level or do HD roll + CON on odd levels and the other ability (no HD) on the even levels?

But, to satisfy yourself and others, I could probably write up something more to your liking over the holidays this week.

Tell me more of exactly what you'd like to have?

 

[dave2008]

Thanks, but without the other chances, what would be the point?

The monsters are easy mode. By reigning in PC power via extra Hit Points and proficiency and AC bonuses you make the game more playable with the default monsters. You increase the sweet spot of fun and danger,

By not scaling spells to match, casters lose power and non-casters gain more features quickly.

Yes, casters loose some in this scenario, that is what i haven't figure out yet. But part of the point is to relegate difficult, game changing spells to limited ritual usage.

Tell me more of exactly what you'd like to have?

You've done basically what I want, I just need to cut some out. If I get a chance I will be more specific, but I can run with what you have provided - thanks!

 

[DND_Reborn]

Druid:

Fey Bond: Wood elf becomes less appealing for druids now since the elven immunity to sleep and charm resistance is superseded. Not a huge deal though.

Natural Resistance: I like this.

Wild Walker: Cool and fitting.

Wilderness Expert: I don't know if I'd include Athletics here, but otherwise, I like it. Replace it with Medicine, maybe?

Wild Shape Improvement (Plant): Cool feature, but definitely favors Moon Druids... If you cast Call Lightning first then Wild Shape into a Shambling mound (which Moon Druids would be able to do at 15th; not sure what Level / 3 translates to here) and go into melee, you can use your action to zap your enemy and heal yourself at the same time. I don't mind this particularly at this level since you still have to pass concentration checks to maintain it, etc. But it might be nice to throw other kinds of druids something.

Conjure Elemental: This is really strong. I think waiving the "lose control" clause is reasonable, but I don't know that I'd have it not require concentration.

Yeah, with the races not everything is going to help but that is hard to do.

Again, I am trying to favor AD&D classes since that was my favorite edition. I think Natural Resistance mirrors this.

Including Athletics for Wilderness expert is because it isn't a class skill, and the idea of druids being able to climb, jump, and swim better if they chose to makes sense to me. An alternative ability would be instead to allow them such movement with extra move costs? I'm not sure which I would prefer.

Wild Shape (Plant) just seemed like a nice next step to me. For L10 the CR 5 level would be around 8th level. At that point, the combo you mention is nice to have.

I don't know how useful it would be to other druids, but that is what some playtesting might discover. Maybe have an Oozes option as well as Plant, player's choice? Kind of strange, but might be fun!

For Conjure Elemental, if your concentration is normally broken it becomes hostile. I don't mind it being a "concentration" use, but I would have to reword it so that if your concentration is broken, it disappears instead of becoming hostile. That would work fine IMO.

 

[RSIxidor]

I think you've done excellent work and compacting the game like this is something I've seen others do, and have wanted to do myself. Usually it's at the cost of existing class features, though. That you've maintained them is impressive.

Anyway, onto my thoughts about the details (note that I didn't read anyone else's comments, so sorry if it doubles up on some stuff).

Your optional feats table, how does it handle that the fighter and rogue normally get more ASI/feat levels? Or does it? I disagree with your statement on ASIs. Most of the tables I've played with that have feats still focus on ASIs at least until the primary stat is maxed out. Feats are more interesting to me personally, but they are often build defining, so they are usually considered in creation of the character. Many players are happy with just what's in the class and subclass. I've also played at tables where you can get both ASI and feat simultaneously, and it was some wacky fun but that's definitely not for everyone. Back to my point, since feats is an optional addition in your system (as in 5E), maybe I'm worrying overmuch about it.

Love the 1/2 prof, prof, prof+1/2 system. As in 5E, I think these should have been codified. For your system, perhaps "talented, proficient, expertise," with a clear definition of what it means to be each of those things. Perhaps unnecessary but I'll always comment this when I read systems.

I love magic resistance for the Barbarian as a very flavorful feature but I dislike removing it for being attuned to stuff. To me, magic items and casting spells are very different things and a warrior utilizing a strong weapon or armor just makes sense. But as you mention in your sidebar, might not be everyone's cup of tea. But since their weapon attacks are magical, and they can basically cast detect magic, feels like a weird distinction to me.

Unfaltering Stamina - definitely a good thing, and I like that they can go double CON for HP (sidenote, I hate rolling for HP, so if I were to use this, I'd modify that for my table. Not sure how yet, though, as I think max HP is too much).

Taunting Jibe is nice for the bard.

I think Investiture should be level 1. It's a choice that is somewhat build-defining. You'll get your subclass features at the same time, and in a similar way, taking a domain that gives weapon and armor proficiency is build defining. Postponing that to level 2 is something I don't care for, especially when you're already bringing everyone else's subclass choices down to level 1. This also feels like a way to do clerical sub-classes in a really simplified version of D&D where domains are not used (not really a criticism, just an observation). I guess I'd move CD back to two for that shift.

I realize you have subclasses as optional. How do you feel about Ward of the Faith and a Light Domain cleric. Would they then get both features, effectively being able to impose disadvantage on attacks up to 8 times?

Druid looks solid. Love fey bond, love natural resistance, love all of these new features. Probably main thing I'd want here is some built in way to use wild shape that isn't turning into an animal or plant, similar to some of the recent UAs like the one where you can summon a walking fire thing.

Weapon Specialization seems too strong. I'd put the bonus to damage instead, or maybe a +1 to both. Consider archery fighting style plus weapon specialization. +4 to attack on top of ability and proficiency?

Does indomitable still reroll the saving throw, or only add the bonus?

Fighter might be a good place for that intimidating thing I mentioned earlier, though it feels just as at home on the barbarian. EDIT: I think I removed what I said earlier about intimidation. I really like the idea that intimidating fellows can frighten people, as in impose that condition. Something like the taunting jibe you've given bard.

Knowledge is Power seems like it should be expertise if already proficient.

I like the change to Lay on Hands, but now you aren't really laying hands on anything but air. Oh well, keep the name for history's sake.

I really like Purity of Spirit but I don't like it at 9th. Doesn't seem like it should be limited to Cha times/long rest that late in the class features. Per short rest maybe, while at-will is probably too strong. Somewhere between might be perfect.

I'd rebuild the ranger using inspiration from the UA variants, personally.

Cunning Action expansions and Quick Thinking are nice.

Warlock was where I was most excited to see what you did... but seems you're asking for help instead! I'm somewhat of the opinion that the warlock needs a bit of a redesign as well, but I'm just not sure where to start. They are very customizable with their invocations, their known and cast spells can be very limited due to the way pact magic and mystic arcanum work. Possibly redesigning this class would require making certain invocations part of the core of the class features rather than their own thing. Another tact might be to make the pact boons more important. Maybe your L3/L4/L5 features should have something to do with the boons. Part of the issue is that both the patron and the pact boon feel like subclasses, but the latter only gives a little but can still be very build defining. Expanded spell lists should become extra spells known rather than just given access to. Warlock's can already learn so few spells, just give them to them. It would also be better if they are all spells from outside of the warlock spell list, and they scale properly with the warlock's level but that might be outside the scope of what you're trying to do.

I like the wizard stuff for the most part. Not sure I like wizardy but it's probably fine. I really dislike versatile casting. Casting two levels higher just to avoid using somatic or verbal feels very restrictive to me. Honestly, I'd probably go really simple here and have the player choose to skip verbal or somatic as long as both are in the spell. That doesn't do anything for verbal+material or somatic+material, though, where yours does.

 

[DND_Reborn]

@RSIxidor

Wow, great feedback! While I dislike longer posts in general... I have to appreciate all the thought you've put into your critique. I hve to leave for work in 15 minutes, so I don't have time right now to address all your points, but I'll get to it either tonight or tomorrow morning.

In the meantime, if you think of anything for warlock, let me know!

 

[RSIxidor]

I thought to look to previous editions for some inspiration. 4E had an ability that encouraged the warlock to move around a lot, providing concealment if they moved at least 15 feet, Shadow Walk. Don't think i'd port that mechanically but the flavor is kind of nice. But then, it doesn't necessarily fit some types of warlocks. Modify the name a bit and you could have something there.

Thinking back to Taunting Jibe, something similar with Deception could be neat to have.

The problem with both of these (and many features you might think of for the Warlock), is that they fit just as well as Invocations rather than core class features due to the inherent and desirable flexibility of the class. My previous suggestion in having the class features at 3/4/5 be related to the boons suffers from the same issue, a lot of the things you'd put here already exist as invocations and make sense as invocations. Then again, maybe it would be okay to take the invocations that most warlocks who take a specific boon would take and make them class features. For instance, automatically giving Extra Attack at level 5 to pact of the blade warlocks, rather than it being a feature. Automatically giving pact of the tome warlocks the ritual casting invocation. There might be something to that, and I think I will give this some more thought. There would still be plenty of other invocations to pick up and would allow for some of the more interesting ones to be used for builds where they normally wouldn't.

Oddly, the weakness of the class is that some of the options in the classes inherent flexibility are much more desirable. There isn't a cantrip that can stand up to Eldritch Blast (as an example), especially with all the invocations that empower it.

An alternative option is to redesign the class from the ground up to be closer to its 3.5 version, where Eldritch Blast and Curse/Hex was a core feature of the class. But then you lose the flexibility that we enjoy in 5th with this class.

I know I'm getting a bit rambly here, sorry for two long posts now.