A 3-way Encounter

[BiggusGeekus]

For talking purposes, let us assume a standard party of four, who are 10th level.

The party is facing two sets of opponents: A & B

It is a three-way fight. A & B will be trying to kill each other. A & B will attack whoever they think is "winning" the fight.

What is the "proper" EL for A and B? 10? Higher (because they'll be fighting each other?) Lower (because they can team up on the party?)

What are your thoughts?

 

[Christian]

"Dear Penthouse Forum: I never thought this would happen to me! Me and my party were just delving into the dungeon as we do every week ..."

IMO: since the presumption of the EL system is that the party is going to win (while expending ~20% of their resources, for a standard challenge), I would treat the A & B groups together as the challenge, and power that whole group to provide the challenge level you're looking for. Maybe power it up a litte under the presumption that they'll beat up on each other for a while. But if you make each group individually a good challenge for the PC's, you run the serious risk that even if the PC's beat (say) group A, they'll use so many resources that when group B turns their attention to the PC's (seeing that they're the larger threat), the PC's won't have the resources left to deal with that threat ...

" ... We never met party A or party B again. But I'll never forget that unique encounter!"

 

[Rystil Arden]

Right, so in that vein, EL 10 is very weak for the enemy groups, due to the fact that 4 level 10 PCs can usually crush a EL 10 encounter (losing 20-25% of resources), and in fact two EL 10 groups working together at all times against the PCs is ~EL12, which the PCs should still be able to beat. I'd make the enemy groups EL12. That way, if both enemy groups do team up against the PCs , the encounter is EL 14, which the PCs have a chance to win, though it'll be hard (even match). One example of two EL 12 groups is two groups, each with 2 level 10 NPCs, so definitely if the EL 12 groups fight each other, you can see that the party has the edge.

 

[BiggusGeekus]

OK, so one vote for low and another for high.

I'll try EL 10 for each group and have them fire their inital attack at each other. If the party does nothing, they'll focus on each other for a total of two rounds before realizing they're gimping themselves.

That should do it.

Edit: rewrote enitre post.
re-edit: and fixed typo

 

[Rystil Arden]

OK, so one vote for low and another for high.

I'll try EL 10 for each group and have them fire their inital attack at each other. If the party does nothing, they'll focus on each other for a total of two rounds before realizing they're gimping themselves.

That should do it.

Edit: rewrote enitre post.
re-edit: and fixed typo

That'll work--you should find that the party has no trouble at all, which might be your intention. They could blithely walk in and attack the two groups at once and they would still win. (For reference, an EL 10 group might be two level 8 NPCs, so you can see how I might think that two of those who aren't allied are really easy for 4 level 10 PCs). Then again, only you truly know your party and what they can handle, particularly as the levels begin to rise into double-digits.

 

[Christian]

Well, if your goal is for the challenge to be equivalent to a 'standard' EL 10 encounter, you need to go lower. Officially, your two EL 10 groups add up to about an EL 12 encounter, which isn't too hard for a climactic encounter. Since they won't be working together initially, that probably makes them about EL 11.

A more interesting question: If the PC's and party A defeat party B, then party A runs away, do the PCs have to share the experience points for defeating party B with party A? (They get full XP for defeating party A, of course, as they forced them to flee ...)

 

[BiggusGeekus]

Well, if your goal is for the challenge to be equivalent to a 'standard' EL 10 encounter, you need to go lower. Officially, your two EL 10 groups add up to about an EL 12 encounter, which isn't too hard for a climactic encounter. Since they won't be working together initially, that probably makes them about EL 11.

That works. I can place it in an area where the party is fresh so they won't jave just tossed off their last fireball or whatever. This sounds like it's going to be complicated enough to run without having to factor in other encounters.

I was originally considering a bunch of archers on each side and have the party be caught inbetween a huge crossfire. I put the kibosh on that one. Does a given archer in A have line of sight on B when a PC is in the way? If a fighter with a tower shield is hunkered down against B what are his defenses against A when D&D has no facing rules? And doing all of this while rolling 6 base attacks per side. A neat idea and one I offer to the ENworld community if they can get it to work. But Lord, I don't want to GM that.

A more interesting question: If the PC's and party A defeat party B, then party A runs away, do the PCs have to share the experience points for defeating party B with party A? (They get full XP for defeating party A, of course, as they forced them to flee ...)

Good point. I'd have to fudge the exp on that. Maybe award a percentage of the exp based on roughly how much damage/crowd control/whatever the PCs did. And I'll have to invent sufficent motivation for Party A (in your example) to attack the PCs.