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A bit tired of people knocking videogames...

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I don't know where you're going with this *switching my mood towards this thread from annoyed to curious*. After all, that's why I started this thread; I've already done what you are saying I should do.

Actually, by starting this thread with title, you really havent- you've dredged up what people who don't have that viewpoint THINK those with that viewpoint are saying.

You should have asked something more directed: "Those who say 4Ed is too videogamey, what do you mean?"

There is also a point behind Carthage must be destroyed.

I'm aware of the origins of that sentence, but following my own advice, I let it pass.
 

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And drudged up a response of people who want to correct those with "false" assumptions (which I, myself have seen as the reasoning to hate (typically) 4e blatently stated by posters in the past). Sure, there's a lot of unnecessary snipping and it takes a bit to separate what I was looking for from the chaff, but that's forums for ya.

I've found that half-baked rants-when-I'm-tired are more likely to (eventually) generate a useful response than a more thought-out post ment to generate discussion (like this one).

Carthage still must be destroyed, though. They hate working families.
 




Limited Options: You can say that a 4e character has more options than a 1e character. And you'd be right - mechanically, there ARE more options. However, there is a problem. In a 4e game, you are generally restricted to your powers. And that means that you use those powers... over and over again.

There's a great scene in Firefly where Jayne Cobb throws a dagger at a guy, charges him, and beats him up. This is awesome. But if Jayne did that every time he got into a fight, he'd be a boring character. 4e characters seem to be an extension of that - every fight, using the same few moves, over and over again. Sure, we can fluff the powers differently each time, but they FEEL different than in 1e, where "I attack" often felt a bit more cinematic than the different encounter powers.

I don't get this.

Not only is there nothing stopping you from doing this, 4e encourages off the wall stunts far more then any previous edition. The emphasis on interesting terrain in fights and the presence of Page 42 means you have more support then ever before to be creative with things.

Repetitive Combats: There are few real resistances or immunities in monsters. And nothing will stop your powers from working on all monsters more or less the same. Once your group has their options figured out, most every combat will play out the same way - the power results are predictable, and while the monsters are wild cards, we can usually guess that the way to defeat them is to divide and conquer. In every fight, the same encounter powers will be used again and again. The same feats. PCs will be in the same rough approximate position (defenders up front, the archer in the back, etc), unless the unexpected happens, in which case the goal of the game is to get back into your expected position.

How is endlessly just saying "I full attack" any different?

So many of the complaints about 4e that I see, apply just as much if not more so to previous editions.
 


I'll answer the questions to the best of my ability, but remember that part of this just comes from personal play experiences and whatnot. Really, I can summarize it thusly - while 4e seems to have more options and capacity than other editions, that capacity is actually diminished in real play.

This has been my experience; I fully accept that it may not be yours, and I'm not in the business of making blanket statements.

That being said, to answer some questiosn!

I don't get this.

Not only is there nothing stopping you from doing this, 4e encourages off the wall stunts far more then any previous edition. The emphasis on interesting terrain in fights and the presence of Page 42 means you have more support then ever before to be creative with things.

Yes. Except, as I'm sure you've heard, page 42 is kind of a flawed example, because many of those rules basically encourage PCs NOT to use them. Or, rather, they are a great resource, but the game really rewards encounter power usage more, because those powers usually have better effects (and even if they don't, players are more likely to use them because they know the results of the power, and may have feats + magical items that heighten those powers' effects).

While terrain powers are GREAT, and I fully support them, an unfortunate side effect is that sometimes GMs tend to disregard terrain that doesn't have terrain powers written for them. Also, an unfortunate side effect I've seen is players not wanting to use terrain effects that they know were put there by the GM, because those powers often feel contrived and "balanced", and would rather use their own encounter powers.

Not to mention, in older editions, it was the very vagueness of the terrain that encouraged players to think outside the box. there was a bit more negotiation between players and GMs (again, in my own experience, I'm sure other experiences will conflict). However, with pre-written powers, that negotiation can slip - the game becomes a matter of the GM staying on his side of the screen, and the players staying on theirs.

How is endlessly just saying "I full attack" any different?

In some ways, it's not. But in others, it's a huge difference. Because player's DON'T endlessly say "I attack" all the time. Sometimes, they describe their powers in glorious detail. Or at the very least, they're visualizing their attacks in different ways.

A player could say "I attack" fifty times in a session, and in his head, each attack could be something else. In real play, this is probably not the case - he might visualize a few sword slices, or have some vague idea of attacks.

My problem is, if in a 4e game the PCs get in three fights, in each fight, when the fighter says "I use Come and Get It", he is visualizing that in the exact same way. Because that power is a named attack, and one that in most players' logical minds would repeat in a similar way. So, every encounter, he uses that power, and it looks exactly the same in his mind's eye.

So, while "I attack" might seem much more boring mechanically, in the minds of players, that doesn't necessarily translate.

So many of the complaints about 4e that I see, apply just as much if not more so to previous editions.

This may or may not be true. Sometimes, an edition change highlights problems that never seemed as big in older editions. I never heard a complaint about sleep until 3rd edition came out, when it was actually nerfed in comparison to older editions. And yet, sleep has always been a very important spell in D&D. Ditto for (low-level) undead - undead were never considered "weak" monsters in my group of friends until 3rd edition came out... and then we played BECMI and the undead were easily the less threatening monsters out there (unless we count the few that have level drain).

However, just because we may be able to see traces of those complaints in past editions... it doesn't mean they don't exist in the new edition. Quite often, it's changes in the new edition that are highlighting these problems we never saw in earlier editions.

We didn't care much about sleep because wizards didn't have too many spells. Suddenly, wizards get more spells at the start of the game, and sleep becomes a game-changer, even though it's actually been weakened. And no one complained about undead being weak in earlier games because players were oftne more in the dark about the monsters' mechanics... but in 3e, where they could see some of the mechanics of the monster during play, the easiness involved in killing low-level undead became readily apparent.
 

Yes. Except, as I'm sure you've heard, page 42 is kind of a flawed example, because many of those rules basically encourage PCs NOT to use them. Or, rather, they are a great resource, but the game really rewards encounter power usage more, because those powers usually have better effects (and even if they don't, players are more likely to use them because they know the results of the power, and may have feats + magical items that heighten those powers' effects).

To quote GURPS rules, if sand in the face always worked then people would give up carrying weapons and instead wander round with bags of sand. Improvising isn't generally as good as muscle memory and the most effective things PCs can do.

While terrain powers are GREAT

Your experience of the drawbacks doesn't match mine.

My problem is, if in a 4e game the PCs get in three fights, in each fight, when the fighter says "I use Come and Get It", he is visualizing that in the exact same way.

You may be. But I'm not. I'm visualising roughly the same approach applied to whatever the situation is. I think across the course of the first three levels I repeated descriptions twice with my wizard and once with my monk. (My Warlord a bit more because he tended to spam Powerful Warning ("Duck!" - although that was different based on the incoming attack) and Direct the Strike (naming moves from the PCs katas with a different naming convention for each PC he used it for))
 

The emphasis on interesting terrain in fights and the presence of Page 42 means you have more support then ever before to be creative with things.
I have never considered one page of rules of thumb to be serious support for creativity. The idea that you can put a different coat of paint of a single page of "one size fits all" mechanics for every situation is a hallmark of the homogeneity of 4E. IMO.

How is endlessly just saying "I full attack" any different?
Is this an accurate description of how you played 3E? And, if so, why do you think your comments are meaningful to my play experience?

Or are you not being honest about 3e? And, if so, why do you think your comments are meaningful to my play experience?
 

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