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A bit tired of people knocking videogames...

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No, you (meaning the collective you who call X videogamey) find it confusing, too. You just don't disagree with it.

(1) You have no idea whether or not anyone other than yourself finds it confusing. Well, I guess from this thread you could accept that ProfC does as well. But, if you take his word that he finds it confusing, why wouldn't you take the word of all of those who say they do not?

(2) You have no idea whether or not I agree or disagree with it.

(3) Your example of recognizing "the confusion one step earlier" is not, AFAICT, an example of the term being confusing, but rather an example of disagreeing whether or not the feeling is justified. You understand how the person feels; you disagree that the hit point example justifies that feeling.


RC
 

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No. I believe that we shouldn't belabor the point. People have explained both on this thread and in the past what they have meant. The argument seems to be that they aren't explaining enough, and that is frankly not a requirement.

No one is talking about requiring anything. We're saying it would be super great of these people to explain exactly what they mean, rather than relying upon everyone understanding a common meaning for a made-up word that no one agrees on the contextual meaning of.
 

(1) You have no idea whether or not anyone other than yourself finds it confusing. Well, I guess from this thread you could accept that ProfC does as well. But, if you take his word that he finds it confusing, why wouldn't you take the word of all of those who say they do not?

I think it is safe to say that when the following conversation takes place:

Person A: "4e is too videogamey!"
Person B: "Yeah, I know! It plays just like a video game!"
Person A: "Yeah, hit points make no sense, how can someone at 1 hp fight as well as someone at 40 hp?!"
Person B: "What? That's not videogamey at all! That's been in D&D since the beginning!"
Person A: "But it's just like something out of a video game!"

...that the observers aren't the only ones confused.

(2) You have no idea whether or not I agree or disagree with it.
Man, I even went through the effort of making it clear that I wasn't talking about anyone in particular but rather a collective group who matches the traits I listed, and even still you decide that I must be talking about you individually. Unbelievable.

(3) Your example of recognizing "the confusion one step earlier" is not, AFAICT, an example of the term being confusing, but rather an example of disagreeing whether or not the feeling is justified. You understand how the person feels; you disagree that the hit point example justifies that feeling.
When two people point at something and say "That thing is red," and then one of them says "Yeah, just like an apple," and the other says "What? That's nothing like the sort of red an apple is," it is abundantly clear that there exists some confusion and ambiguity attached to the word "red" (or, feasibly, to the word "apple") that is leading to pointless argument.
 

There have been many elements of many versions of RPGs that have video game feeling elements - that were easy to remove. 4e makes it harder - everyone casts spells (or has abilities, whatever) healing surges, combat roles. Incredible amounts of money and magic REQUIRED at levels in order to play. Just remove the magic items from the mix and see how long your world holds together in RAW.

I think the big thing here is that the CORE rulebooks of every edition started small and added things that certain players wanted. 4e started with all the Wire-fu, video game stuff built in and it makes it that much harder to get past. Yes there are some things that the edition got right like rituals, but OVERALL, the FEEL, yes FEEL, (not a specific rule, the FEEL) is that of a video game transported to a table top RPG. And that's fine if it's what you want, I don't.

I want dark, gritty and deadly; hard to do if players are healed after every encounter to full, no questions asked. Most of what I've seen in this thread is supports of 4e saying show me how it's video-gamey and those that feels that way complaining that those that disagree aren't listening. And to an extent that's true.

So let me spell it out - IT FEELS LIKE A VIDEO GAME....
I like video games, but I can play those, by myself, anytime. When I get together with my friend to play an RPG, I want there to be a difference - no wire-fu moves, no outrageous amounts of required magic items, no 3 million GP requirements for treasure (Astral Diamonds, really).

I like a BIT of realism in my D&D and up until this edition it was easy to drop certain things, or ignore add-ons to get it to that sweet spot. It's nearly impossible to do so without altering the rules to the point of re-writing the PHB and really, who wants to do that. So, is THAT clear enough?
 

(1) You have no idea whether or not anyone other than yourself finds it confusing. Well, I guess from this thread you could accept that ProfC does as well. But, if you take his word that he finds it confusing, why wouldn't you take the word of all of those who say they do not?

For what it's worth, I find it confusing.

But that's true for most RPG discussion. With all our made-up jargon (that no one really agrees on) and the fact that there are so many different ways to play the same game, it can be hard to understand other people's experiences.

Talking face-to-face helps to clear things up, though. ;)
 

There have been many elements of many versions of RPGs that have video game feeling elements - that were easy to remove. 4e makes it harder - everyone casts spells (or has abilities, whatever) healing surges, combat roles. Incredible amounts of money and magic REQUIRED at levels in order to play. Just remove the magic items from the mix and see how long your world holds together in RAW.

Inherent bonuses.

I want dark, gritty and deadly; hard to do if players are healed after every encounter to full, no questions asked.
PCs are only healed to full if they have the resources to do so (healing surges remaining). Similarly, PCs in previous editions are healed to full if they have the resources to do so (Wand of Cure Light Wounds).

So, I mean, questions asked.

So let me spell it out - IT FEELS LIKE A VIDEO GAME....
I like video games, but I can play those, by myself, anytime. When I get together with my friend to play an RPG, I want there to be a difference - no wire-fu moves, no outrageous amounts of required magic items, no 3 million GP requirements for treasure (Astral Diamonds, really).
So the 200,000 gp required to get a maxed-out sword in 3.5/PF is fine, but the 3,000,000 gp required to get a maxed-out sword in 4e just ruins the immersion for you, huh. Somewhere between 200,000 and 3,000,000, they crossed the line.

I like a BIT of realism in my D&D and up until this edition it was easy to drop certain things,
You mean like how they actually let you drop magic items completely and still keep the math perfectly intact using inherent bonuses, unlike previous editions of the game? :erm:

So, is THAT clear enough?
The only thing that was clear from this post was that you have some very odd ideas about how 4e must work, and that I'm not sure you have anywhere near the familiarity required to pass off any kind of credible criticism of the game.
 

No one is talking about requiring anything. We're saying it would be super great of these people to explain exactly what they mean, rather than relying upon everyone understanding a common meaning for a made-up word that no one agrees on the contextual meaning of.

I'm going to quote Transbot9 (the original poster) from a post he made in this thread, with a bit more than I find relevant, but enough to leave the context clear. I'm going to add emphasis, so that I might make a point following the quote. I do not intend for this to affect the reading of the following quote:

Here's the problem: Typically, what is said is "I don't like x because it is too much like a videogame." Very little exposition is typically given as to 1. Why it feels like a videogame and B. Why feeling like a videogame in this instance is a bad thing.

Now, some of the posts in this thread do go into it and break it down. But when the phrase "I hate it because it feels like a videogame" tossed around and treated like an insult to a particular product (which happens in the edition warring that goes on), it lacks the exposition needed to place the phrase in a context that makes any sense beyond just ragging on something.

So what we have is a "sound-bite" that becomes an oft-repeated reason for why something sucks. If there is a lack of additional context, it just becomes an insult that implies any influence from videogames to P&P RPGs is a bad plan and ruins the roleplaying experiance.

From the first area I've emphasized, I'd like to point out that his reasoning is not completely aligned with the post of yours I quoted. Yes, he thinks that additional information would be helpful for communication, as you do (if I've read your posts correctly in this thread).

However, Transbot9 goes on to say that he also feels it is an insult at video games. I don't believe this is true, as I noted on my previous post in this thread (one page back now). Even Transbot9 uses the phrase "I hate it because it feels like a videogame" in his example, which, as I pointed out, is not inherently negative or insulting. I'd put forward the idea that getting away from taking something descriptive (whether or not you think it's adequately so) as insulting is probably a good thing, especially when someone can claim it is so without actually meaning any insult at the comparison.

As an example, I heard complaints (some time ago, so this isn't that contemporary) that the new Metal Gear games felt too much like movies. I know for a fact that the people who made the complaint do not dislike movies (as we've watched movies together on many occasions over the years), and yet their complaint communicated a feeling.

Yes, there's usually a few things that cause this feeling. However, at the end of the day, it's still a feeling, and as such -for better or worse in practical dialogue- it transcends conventional logic. Something can have a certain feel to it that just rubs you the wrong way. I can dislike D&D for the feel it gives in one incarnation of the game, and like D&D for the feel it gives in another incarnation. It does not mean that I dislike the other things that I may compare it to.

That's the disconnect, I think. There are statements that saying something "feels too much" like something else implies that the subject compared to is somehow bad. It's not, inherently, and I think that taking offense or insult when it is used as a comparison is probably illogical. That's okay, to an extent, as the person saying something "feels" a certain way is also being illogical, to an extent.

Yes, you can discuss the specifics of the problem. However, the likely answer in the end -even if you speak about things completely logically- is that something still "feels too much like" something else. It's about a theme, really, that someone feels when they play something, and then how much that theme resonates with them and their style and preferences.

These things are subjective, and people see things in different ways. At the end of the day, play what you like :)
 
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I think it is safe to say that when the following conversation takes place:

Person A: "4e is too videogamey!"
Person B: "Yeah, I know! It plays just like a video game!"
Person A: "Yeah, hit points make no sense, how can someone at 1 hp fight as well as someone at 40 hp?!"
Person B: "What? That's not videogamey at all! That's been in D&D since the beginning!"
Person A: "But it's just like something out of a video game!"

...that the observers aren't the only ones confused.

Don't know; I've never seen anything remotely like that, outside your example.

Person A: "4e is a role-playing game!"
Person B: "Yeah, I know! It plays just like a role-playing game!"
Person A: "Yeah, healing surges are so cool, they let someone at 1 hp fight really get back into the fight!"
Person B: "What? That's not role-playing at all!"
Person A: "But it's something out of a role-playing game!"

I guess the term "role-playing game" is too confusing to use. Shall I go on with the terms that are too confusing to use?

Man, I even went through the effort of making it clear that I wasn't talking about anyone in particular but rather a collective group who matches the traits I listed, and even still you decide that I must be talking about you individually. Unbelievable.

If that's really the case, within the context of the quote, your statement makes no sense. Or, rather, it is recursive.

Person A: No, you (meaning the collective you who call X videogamey) find it confusing, too. You just don't disagree with it.
Person B: How do you know that? Maybe we do disagree with it, and still don't find it confusing.
Person A: Nuh uh. Because, remember, I defined you collectively as people who don't disagree and who find it confusing!

:confused:

But my response doesn't require that you must be talking about me individually. It is still true. You don't know that the collective who call X videogamey find it confusing. Nor do you know that the people who don't find it confusing actually agree that X is videogamey.

It would be comforting to you if you did; your conclusion might then be a rational one (although still not a rational one as you've constructed it).

When two people point at something and say "That thing is red," and then one of them says "Yeah, just like an apple," and the other says "What? That's nothing like the sort of red an apple is," it is abundantly clear that there exists some confusion and ambiguity attached to the word "red" (or, feasibly, to the word "apple") that is leading to pointless argument.

It is abundantly clear that both parties have a very solid idea of what they mean by "red" and what they mean by "apple", but that there is some disagreement between their two conceptions.

That doesn't mean that Bob or Angie (our two speakers) are at all confused by what they mean.

Moreover, if Rita and Stewart and John and Cassie and Mike and Romana all seem to understand what Angie means, and seem unable to fathom Bob's confusion, one might draw the conclusion that Bob's confusion is an artifact of Bob, rather than an artifact of the terms "apple" or "red".

This is doubly true if we believe, from previous or concurrent statements, that Bob has some reason to believe that likening things to the colour of apples is objectionable.
 
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The only thing that was clear from this post was that you have some very odd ideas about how 4e must work, and that I'm not sure you have anywhere near the familiarity required to pass off any kind of credible criticism of the game.

And this is why people shy away from giving more detailed responses.

What I'm seeing is less a need to have a word defined and more a desire to have points to pick at, which is sort of a poor way to go about a discussion.
 
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Don't know; I've never seen anything remotely like that, outside your example.

Person A: "4e is a role-playing game!"
Person B: "Yeah, I know! It plays just like a role-playing game!"
Person A: "Yeah, healing surges are so cool, they let someone at 1 hp fight really get back into the fight!"
Person B: "What? That's not role-playing at all!"
Person A: "But it's something out of a role-playing game!"

I guess the term "role-playing game" is too confusing to use. Shall I go on with the terms that are too confusing to use?

Actually, I'm glad you brought this up. I have the exact same issue with people who say things like "You can't roleplay in 4e!" Inevitably, when forced to examine what exactly they mean by "roleplay", we reach the same level of confusion: no one agrees on what roleplaying is, and we'd be better served by actually breaking it down into easily understandable criticisms.

Thunderfoot did a great job of outlining specific complaints (even if some were not exactly accurate) that could be easily addressed.
 

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