A bit tired of people knocking videogames...

[JamesonCourage]

But there are a sizable number people that do hear that, and in using that term you're saying things you don't mean;what you think you said isn't as important as what people think you said-the former is reflection, the latter is communication. If you keep using the term, well, you'll just annoy and irritate some people, including some you may want to deal with. "I didn't mean that" generally doesn't work with things that people think are insults, so be careful.

Yes, people should be sensitive, but like I've said before in this thread, if someone says "Metal Gear feels too much like a movie" I do know it's not a shot at movies.

It's about context. And to be fair, some people who say it do dislike video games, and it may be a shot at them. However, the statement itself, without any qualifiers, is not an insult to video games.

It may not be clear enough to some people, but as I've pointed out above, we're going through the same 13 step process over and over.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

But there are a sizable number people that do hear that,

That's their problem. They are inferring what is NOT being implied, nor stated explicitly.

and in using that term you're saying things you don't mean;

No, I'm saying something I most certainly do mean: that the game reminds me of videogames in some way, and on some level, that isn't what I want of my TTRPG.

that what you think you said isn't as important as what people think you said-the former is reflection, the latter is communication.

I can't read minds...but neither can anyone else. Inference is just as tricky as implication.

Words have multiple meanings. Communication is when parties find common meaning in words, whether or not they have multiple meanings. Its a process.

If you keep using the term, well, you'll just annoy and irritate some people, including some you may want to deal with. "I didn't mean that" generally doesn't work with things that people think are insults, so be careful.

Ah, the English language, so full of words with multiple meanings.

If someone insists on taking something that isn't inherently an insult as an insult- especially after someone has clarified that is was in no way meant to be an insult- that's the listener's problem.

Especially when we're talking about some fairly convoluted parsing. "X is too Y" is not targeted at Y; it is not a critique of Y. It is targeted at X. If you think you're reading a sentence that is targeted at Y, you have a problem.

(Besides, I'm a lawyer. I'm used to people being annoyed at what I say.)

 

[Beginning of the End]

Sure it does. It's houseruling, only a bit more complicated.

Complicated to the point where it's nonfunctional in the context of a given game session.

Say I've got a player who wants to jump from a banister, grab the chandelier, and swing over to the far side of the room?

My tabletop game of choice doesn't have explicit mechanics for that, but I can make a ruling on it in about 3 seconds flat.

If a computer game doesn't have that programmed as an option, I might be able to add it with sufficient work. But there's no way I'm doing it smoothly in the middle of a session.

To see the effect this has on player creativity, you can run a simple experiment at your next session: Every time they try to do something for which there isn't an explicit rule in the rulebook, take a break for 60 minutes before resuming the game. I can virtually guarantee you that by the end of the session your players will have either (a) quit or (b) learned to curtail their actions to the "approved" list in the rulebook.

This fundamental problem extends itself pretty smoothly to world design, too, whether you're talking about the inability for a GM to smoothly handle, "Oh crap, my PCs have gone into a building I wasn't planning for them to enter." Or the impact on the GM's prep load.

This is a problem I already experience when using a simple virtual tabletop: The extra prep work to have maps prepared so that they can just be quickly loaded up is not insignificant.

So in terms of both player creativity and GM creativity, video games just can't compete with the tabletop.

Of course, OTOH, video games kick the tabletop's ass when it comes to rapid combat resolution, graphical immersion, sound design, and that sort of thing.

 

[Bluenose]

Say I've got a player who wants to jump from a banister, grab the chandelier, and swing over to the far side of the room?

My tabletop game of choice doesn't have explicit mechanics for that, but I can make a ruling on it in about 3 seconds flat.

If you're playing a tebletop RPG without a GM willing to adjudicate actions that the rules don't cover, then I dare say it does feel like you're playing a videogame in that respect. I'm pretty sure that it's not something that can be directed at a particular game as opposed to being directed at a particular GM.

 

[BryonD]

If you're playing a tebletop RPG without a GM willing to adjudicate actions that the rules don't cover, then I dare say it does feel like you're playing a videogame in that respect. I'm pretty sure that it's not something that can be directed at a particular game as opposed to being directed at a particular GM.

It frequently comes back to this.....

We can all stipulate that if you are playing a game with a DM and/or players that suck, then the game will suck.

But you have dropped any relevance of the game itself out of the conversation when you presume limitations in the players. The conversation is much more interesting and useful if we presume quality participants. If that presumption makes the conversation inapplicable to you, then I'm sorry about that.

 

[jmucchiello]

But there are a sizable number people that do hear that, and in using that term you're saying things you don't mean;what you think you said isn't as important as what people think you said-the former is reflection, the latter is communication. If you keep using the term, well, you'll just annoy and irritate some people, including some you may want to deal with. "I didn't mean that" generally doesn't work with things that people think are insults, so be careful.

We covered this a million times in the first 32 pages of this thread. No matter how many times you say "videogamey" is automatically insulting, many of us will reply "no it isn't" and we've backed that up with many examples.

 

[Dannager]

I would be really interested in examining how many of the posters here - defending the idea that their method of communication isn't automatically derisive or insulting and that they should therefore be given a pass - are the same posters who have in the past decried WotC's initial 4e marketing campaign as insulting and derisive despite the many times they've been told that said campaign was not automatically insulting and derisive, and backed it up with many examples.

I mean, clearly they expect you to be able to infer the intent behind their posts (especially when that intent is not obvious), while at the same time they pretend that it's not possible to do exactly that when it comes to anything WotC puts out.

 

[Diamond Cross]

We covered this...

So what?

What you fail to understand is that to some people it is an insult to some people, and just because you say it shouldn't be doesn't mean that people won't be insulted or take it personally.

What you fail to understand is that if you correct people, many will take it personally because it feels to them that you're making them out to be stupid.

That has also been explained to you a few times as well.

Most people are not logical and most people go by how things look and sound to them.

And it doesn't matter how many examples you back it up with.

When people want to be right above all else...

It just doesn't matter how many times you show them to be wrong, nor how much evidence there is show them they're wrong, they will never change their minds under any circumstances because being right is what's important.


That is something you fail to understand because you value logic too much.

And that's the thing about people who value logic too much. They somehow become disconnected and forget this aspect of humanity and believe what must be true for them must be true for everybody else. It's a bunch of hooey.

And that's why you guys often come across as smug and arrogant and elitist intellectuals.

Because you constantly insist on correcting people to what you think is the proper way to express oneself.

Mod Edit: Folks, getting personal isn't going to make this discussion go any further. Don't be rude - it'll get you booted from the thread like DC here. ~Umbran

 

[Dannager]

That is something you fail to understand because you value logic too much.

And that's the thing about people who value logic too much. They somehow become disconnected and forget this aspect of humanity and believe what must be true for them must be true for everybody else. It's a bunch of hooey.

I'm just going to guess, here, that you've never had instruction in formal logic. I don't really think there can be such a thing as valuing logic too much, no more than there can be such a thing as valuing gravity too much. Logic is a set of rules that assists in both thought and communication.

Calling someone arrogant and an elitist intellectual because they have made use of logical arguments in their discussion of a topic is pretty much exactly the wrong way to go about things.

 

[Fifth Element]

We covered this a million times in the first 32 pages of this thread. No matter how many times you say "videogamey" is automatically insulting, many of us will reply "no it isn't" and we've backed that up with many examples.

It's not "automatically insulting", by which I would guess you mean that everyone finds it insulting in this context (?).

But if you frequent these boards, you should know that some people (certainly not all) find it insulting. You can go ahead, ignore that fact and continue to use the term knowing full well that some people will be insulted by it. Or, you can avoid such terminology (which other people also find frustratingly vague) to enable conversation rather than argument (in the everyday sense of the word).

You may not understand why they find it insulting, but you've been told often enough that they do. Whether you believe that these people should be insulted by the term, the fact remains that some will be. You can choose to ignore this fact; just be prepared to face the consequences.