A chance to cover new ground

[Quickleaf]

I think all the innovations in 5e will be more about connecting the different edition styles of play rather than venturing into new territory. 4e was all all about going in a new direction. My guess is that approach would further fragment the player base.

Could be. I was just brainstorming recurring times in games where I really wanted more involved rules/guidelines that weren't there. Me, I don't see innovation and connecting different edition styles of play to be at odds; on the contrary maybe a level of innovation is necessary to accomplish that goal. That's just this one gamer though.

 

[DEFCON 1]

I believe that the game's numbers between the Skills and the Defenses work out and advance correctly in relation to each other just like the game's Attacks and Defenses are supposed to do. This way, if I wanted to run a "Social Combat" if I so chose... using things like Diplomacy or Intimidate against an NPC's Will defense (rather than just set DCs chosen by the DM), the numbers all work throughout all tiers of play. If you aren't going to give me a "skill defense" against Diplomacy or Intimidate like you did for Bluff (Insight), then I'd like to be able to use Will defense instead.

Not saying the game should require me to run "social combat"... but just that the Skill system's numbers remain in the same general area as Attacks and Defense do, so that I could if I wanted.

 

[KidSnide]

I think these are excellent areas for optional rules modules (where the same GM could even choose different modules for different chases in the same campaign).

In moderation, chase encounters can be a ton of fun. Other good encounter types:
- overland journeys through difficult terrain (mountains, deserts, seas)
- infiltration (either by the group or by an individual)
- information gathering / research / clue finding
- persuading an NPC / "social combat"

Any of these can be handled by a general purpose skill challenge, but I think each of them have their own design considerations and can be done better with a somewhat more specific mechanic.

-KS

 

[howandwhy99]

I'm talking chases on foot, in the sky, thru the city, on rooftops, in the woods which evoke excitement and involve the PCs in making decisions which determine how they progress, and a way for the DM to introduce setbacks. Yes including breaking off from combat and sighting the quarry. Yes including risk vs reward options. I choose 30-60 minutes based on personal experience with how long exciting scenes seem to last in my games, and allow for a series of meaningful decisions to be made. YMMV.

In short the entire experience of running a compelling chase. Is that clear enough?

That does help, thank you. I'm thinking then that 5e could include a higher complexity module for chases that take about 30-60 minutes around the table for an average sized group (let's say 6). I think that kind of defined goal really helps designers in creating an exciting supplement for those who want to use it. I do think we'll still get simple resolution rolls, probably in the core game, to cover these kinds of things quickly for those who like rules light games. That doesn't mean more options are available or the core rules are somehow the default, just that it holds some easily tied to rules for supplements to have their consequences carry through to other parts of the game.

I gotta say this is where board games and card games could help us a lot. The old 1E (and even OD&D) flight rules came from Mike Carr's "Battle in the Skies" game (a.k.a. the Dawn Patrol wargame still going strong). I imagine there are some awesome evasion and pursuit rules which could be used to inspire something exactly you are looking for and could play as a stand alone game in its own right.

You mean a straight up Wilderness Survival skill check (or a couple checks)? Or do you mean more general exploration and survival rules?

You mean the 1e DMG? I'll have to reread that section since both you and [MENTION=66434]ExploderWizard[/MENTION] bring it up.

My mistake. I meant Outdoor Survival. I use it for wilderness exploration, evasion, pursuit, being lost, and more for my OD&D game. OD&D actually said it was required, but there are different theories on why. So no, it isn't a straight up skill check. It's a mini-game in many ways when the players decide to go trailblazing their own path in overland explorations. (We've enjoyed it. It's quick and keeps the danger of the world alive like wandering in the woods alone at night. [bad idea])

Yeah, the AD&D pursuit rules are okay, but make sure to include sighting distances by terrain. Scenting and hearing should be included too (I don't recall if they are in the DMG). For running from a fight though the system does help in rating monsters for difficulty level. Being harder to escape from does make a monster more challenging in my game. It isn't all damage output.

 

[Mallus]

As an old-school DM, I'm against all of the above. Every single one of these could be advocated on the fly by a clever DM, thus, there's no real reason for absolute rules.

FYI... there are chase/pursuit rules in the AD&D DMG.

Been reading it lately, thanks to running AD&D for the 1st time in 15-20 years (depends on if you count 2e as AD&D).

 

[Tehnai]

I need to brush up then! Been running White Box and LotFP lately

 

[Quickleaf]

Not saying the game should require me to run "social combat"... but just that the Skill system's numbers remain in the same general area as Attacks and Defense do, so that I could if I wanted.

Dynasties & Demagogues had an OGL debate ruleset which modeled social combat in great detail. But I really like how you've expressed it: facilitate DM improv with rules that gel together.

Other good encounter types:
- overland journeys through difficult terrain (mountains, deserts, seas)
- infiltration (either by the group or by an individual)
- information gathering / research / clue finding
- persuading an NPC / "social combat"

Any of these can be handled by a general purpose skill challenge, but I think each of them have their own design considerations and can be done better with a somewhat more specific mechanic.
-KS

Yeah I agree with you that those are fun scenarios that come up a lot and could benefit from robust rules. Though I will say 1e was very good on the exploration side of things. Interestingly, I've never seen a solid set of rules/guidelines for running mystery/investigation scenarios.

I gotta say this is where board games and card games could help us a lot. The old 1E (and even OD&D) flight rules came from Mike Carr's "Battle in the Skies" game (a.k.a. the Dawn Patrol wargame still going strong). I imagine there are some awesome evasion and pursuit rules which could be used to inspire something exactly you are looking for and could play as a stand alone game in its own right.

Yeah that's a great point. I never knew that about Dawn Patrol inspiring 1e's fight rules, learn something new everyday.

My mistake. I meant Outdoor Survival. I use it for wilderness exploration, evasion, pursuit, being lost, and more for my OD&D game. OD&D actually said it was required, but there are different theories on why. So no, it isn't a straight up skill check. It's a mini-game in many ways when the players decide to go trailblazing their own path in overland explorations. (We've enjoyed it. It's quick and keeps the danger of the world alive like wandering in the woods alone at night. [bad idea])

Hex-crawling. Ah that brings back memories.

For running from a fight though the system does help in rating monsters for difficulty level. Being harder to escape from does make a monster more challenging in my game. It isn't all damage output.

I never would of thought of that. Seems like a great idea. 1e has all kinds of surprises for me as I rediscover it (was 8 or 9 when I first played 1e).

I need to brush up then! Been running White Box and LotFP lately

Me too! How is the Legend of the Flame Princess?

 

[howandwhy99]

Interestingly, I've never seen a solid set of rules/guidelines for running mystery/investigation scenarios.

I think dungeon exploration is mystery investigation only in terms of space and time rather than a "Who done it?" I've been dabbling with NPC knowledge maps as a means for the players to explore via questioning communicable NPCs. That, coupled with the dungeon map (a kind of calendar map), has allowed me to offer the players mystery investigation adventures without arbitrarily having them create the answer when they're ready to stop. NPC knowledge maps are different, but not all that much harder. Basically a lot of what's left off is simply pointers to the spatial map anyways. (i.e. they remember being in those places for these times, etc.)

Yeah that's a great point. I never knew that about Dawn Patrol inspiring 1e's fight rules, learn something new everyday.

We haven't actually gotten around to using BITS, but then there hasn't been a lot of aerial travel by the PCs to incur wandering airborne combats either. See AD&D p190 for encounters. Dawn patrol is a fun game, if you haven't played it. And it brings in all the swoops, dives, rolls, and turns via cards (and card measurements) that AD&D borrowed without all the headache.

 

[Quickleaf]

[MENTION=3192]howandwhy99[/MENTION]
Any chance you could show a picture of the "knowledge map" or "calendar map"?

 

[Tehnai]

Me too! How is the Legend of the Flame Princess?

I am completely enamored with the game, it's a very sleek, and very very flavourful version of oD&D, one of the nicest encumbrance system I've seen since C&C (I rarely care about encumbrance). It's very much influenced by Lovecraft and co., very much weird fantasy. Also has my favorite fighter intro blurb hobby-wide. I also enjoyed the minimalist skill system (one that is very easy to add to), and the fact that only fighters gain attack bonuses (it sounds weird, I know, but it really does work)

I love how it defines every adventuring class as insane freaks risking their lives for no apparent reasons on a daily basis. You know, instead of just implying it subtly like every other version of the game.

I wholeheartedly recommend it, although this may be a little off-topic

So back to the topic at hand I think it would be a good idea to stick a section in the DMG about rulings and rule advocacy. Instead of placing hard and fast rules on something, give a few examples of situations that may require ruling on the fly and possible solutions.

So instead of chase rules, put an example of ruling going something like this:

The Chase

Bob the Fighter's shiny new shiny object was just stolen by a pickpocket. Bob's player decides to give chase.

Case 1 : The thief is just a thief, the object is unimportant in the grand scheme of things

The GM decides that the chase isn't worth spending much time on, and as such, wants this over quickly. He decides to have Bob's player roll a single related skill check, or ability roll (athletism, streetwise, whatever the player can justify using, really) at a difficulty of 20. If he succeeds, he catches the thief. If he fails, he'll have to find a new and exciting way to find his doodad.

Case 2 : The thief is an agent of the BBEG, the item is an important McGuffin.

The GM decides that this chase is especially important to the story, thus he wants to make it an exciting, detailed and action packed one. He decides that whoever succeeds 5 rolls over the other wins the chase, and secretly chooses a time limit, after which the thief disappears in a crowd, bar, or something. Both participants take turn at doing actions. A clever or cool sounding action gives a +2 to the participant's roll. A roll of 15 is a success, a roll of 20 will cause a penalty to the opponent's next roll, and a natural 20 counts as 2 successes.

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