A comment on one (well, two) of the Epic Feats

[Edena_of_Neith]

I do not remember the name of this Epic Feat, but I do remember reading it in the ELH.

It is the one that allows you to wear more than one item where you could normally wear only one item.

This feat allows for the devastating possibility of wearing 2 suits of armor at once.

I had always believed that it was possible, at least theoretically, that a person could wear magical elven chain (made famous by Bilbo and Frodo in LOTR, even though there it is actually magical dwarven chain) underneath a suit of full plate armor.
Now, it is possible, and indeed the logical choice for a fighter.

If one had two suits of epic armor (one elven chain and one full plate), each + 10 and with a + 10 enhancement, then that would be a total of + 40 in AC bonuses.
In addition to that, the mundane bonuses would stack.
So, the mundane bonus of + 9 for the full plate plus the + 5 for the elven chain would add in.
The total AC bonus would be + 9 + 5 + 40 = + 54.

Dexterity would add to that, of course.
In addition, there are other items that might stack with armor (I am not sure which ones do, in 3rd edition.)

Of course, the Epic Feat allows for the possibility of ridiculous combinations, but then if one can balance oneself on clouds with epic skills, then it is certainly hard on the poor DM.

For instance, one could wear a suit of elven chain and a suit of normal chain.
Or, more ridiculous, two suits of normal chain.
More ridiculous yet, a suit of normal chain and plate armor.
How about two suits of plate armor?

Or, how about THREE suits of armor? The feat specified no limit to the number of items wearable.

I have this (laughable) image of a fighter wearing elven chain, normal chain, normal chain again, full plate, and super-full plate on top of that.
When you talk to the guy, you can't hear anything - when the PC shouts, you hear this faint muffled sound, coming through that 2 feet of solid armor (multiple helmets?!)

Not to mention the guy shouldn't be able to move (period ... not one inch.)
Any attempt to move should cause an immediate, LOUD, crunch as the person falls.

But go figure, with the epic feat, the guy CAN wear two suits of full plate, and function normally.
Talk about supernatural abilities ...

- - -

Incidentally, all characters can be immortal now.
That Extend Life Span feat can be taken over and over, and it stacks.
Who needs Lichdom now?
For that matter, elves and dwarves now lose all of their benefits due to age.

Of course, that ends the need to slow down elven and dwarven advancement (in levels) since, after all, the humans (and orcs!!) are going to level quickly, gain that Extend Life Span feat, and go on levelling.
By the time the poor dwarf or elf has reached maturity and first level, those humans and orcs are going to be running around at 40th level.

I guess that explains why elves and dwarves no longer rule the world. LOL ...

- - -

What is your take, folks, on the two feats above?
How would you adjudicate the wearing of multiple suits of armor?
How would you compensate elves and dwarves for the Extend Life Span feat?

 

[drowdude]

Ok, um, I really dont think the Additional Magic Item Space feat lets you break the fundamental rules for stacking bonuses of the same type.

You *could* wear 2 suits of armor via the feat. But you would only benefit AC wise from the suit that provided the better AC. You *would* be able to benefit from any extra abilities the extra suit of armor has though... such as fortification, invulnerability, etc...

That Extend Life Span feat can be taken over and over, and it stacks.
Who needs Lichdom now?

Um, just a thought... maybe someone doesnt relish the idea of blowing all their feats like that?

 

[drowdude]

How would you compensate elves and dwarves for the Extend Life Span feat?

Why on earth would it be necessary to compensate elves and dwarves for someone of another race blowing all their feats?

 

[the Jester]

Additional Magic Item Space

Well, two bonuses of the same type still don't stack.

The feat says you can "wear one more magic item of this type and also gain its benefit." I read that to mean, f'rinstance, you can put a suit of chain mail +3, heavy fortification on under your full plate +5 of acid resistance and end up with the special properties of both and the better armor bonus.

I admit the wording on this one is a little unclear, but I believe that to be the intent. It says nothing about stacking the same bonus, and in most cases the items (presumably) would give different benefits (add a ring of counterspelling to your rings of protection and water walking).

 

[Edena_of_Neith]

In the case of the Extend Life feat ...

If one takes the example of Fistandantilus into account (to heck with you, Gilean, I'M going with Takhisis, for she is giving me eternal life!) it would appear human mages love their longevity.

And, the Extend Life feat extends life so much that one could take it only once per several Feats, and still gain virtual immortality.

This puts humans on an equal basis with elves and dwarves ... in my opinion.

Now, elves and dwarves CAN take the Extend Life feat themselves (I am guessing the 2nd Edition Elven High Mages do this ...)

In which case, you'd have an Arms Race.
Not an Arms Race in the game - the game does not cover enough game time for that to occur.
However, elves, dwarves, humans, and the other races would have an Arms Race.

The question being: who can produce the biggest, baddest champion of them all?

If, for instance, the humans have Elminster, we elves want someone to counter him.
If the elves have Amlaruil (Queen of Evermeet) we dwarves need someone to match her.

If the surface races have these guys (and girls), we drow need a supermage (or supermagistress) to go and kick all their butts.

If our enemies have all these high level mages, we orcs need some also, so we can conquer and enslave all these usurpers of our lands!

If ... (etc.)

I don't know ... perhaps that wouldn't happen ... and again, given that little thing called Ambition, perhaps it would.

- - -

As for the other Feat ...

I suppose the Feat is open to interpretation.

One could argue that the rules say two bonuses of the same type do not stack. That's legitimate enough.
Or, one could say that the Epic Rules supplant the normal rules (if characters can be gods and be PCs, that certainly supplants any of the rules I knew ...)

One could say that no person could wear two suits of armor.
Just imagine a guy in two suits of plate armor!!! (HELP, I've fallen, and I can't get up! (I can't MOVE, either, for that matter.) (This assume the character survived falling in 200 pounds of armor ...)

Or, one could say that, perhaps, elven chain (which can be worn under clothing) could be worn under Plate Armor.

Perhaps the Armors don't stack.
Perhaps, one could argue, the sword that pierced the plate armor, did not pierce the elven chain underneath - most of it's force went into piercing the plate armor first.

Heck, it's subject to interpretation.

How would I interpret it?

I would be forced to allow any two suits of armor to be worn (it IS an epic feat, after all.)
I don't know HOW someone would wear two suits of plate armor, but I'd allow it (and ask for a very creative explanation as to the how ...)

I would allow three suits of armor to be worn.
However, unless a VERY CREATIVE (read: you'd need to be a genius to convince me) explanation was given, I'd assign a penalty to movement, AC, and all dexterity reactions for pulling this stunt.

I would not allow four suits of armor to be worn unless an incredibly good explanation was given, or the circumstances were truly extraordinary (4 suits of elven chain, perhaps.)

I would allow all bonuses to stack.
Mundane armor bonuses would stack.
Plus bonuses on armor would stack.
Special bonuses on armor would stack.

I would allow this because it is an epic level feat, and apparently with epic feats you can do such (difficult to believe) things, and you can violate the rules presented in the player's handbook.

Just my take on this, of course.

 

[drowdude]

And, the Extend Life feat extends life so much that one could take it only once per several Feats, and still gain virtual immortality.

This puts humans on an equal basis with elves and dwarves ... in my opinion.

What an incredibly silly notion. No it does NOT in any way put humans on an equal basis with elves and dwarves.

The elves and dwarves wouldnt have burned their feats on living a few years longer. Thus when compared at an equal level, the human will get his @$$ handed to him because he wasted all of his feats and the elf and dwarf are inherently superior because they got feats like Overwhelming Critical or Improved Metamagic or any number of other feats.

And there is no way to glean "virtual immortality" from that feat. You do have to go out and earn levels in order to get feat slots dontchaknow? And the idiot who is spending all of his slots on Extend Life will likely find his career cut short rather bloodily.

Just my take on this, of course.

Somehow "your take" on any given subject seems to be the one I would discount as being *wrong*.

 

[Edena_of_Neith]

It may be silly.

But there are a lot of rules in Dungeons and Dragons that many would call silly.

(shrugs)

Each to their own, I say.

 

[Lady Dragon]

I don't see how the extend life feat should effect that many campaigns do you regularly play intil your characters start dying of old age? Its probably in there just for NPC's or for the PC who wants to blow a feat.And even if he is immortal I don't see how 1 human being immortal threatens the dwarven or Elven races.If hes a good person they will probably befreind him and if he's evil he will bean enemy they won't try to outlive him (that's just immature)

 

[Lady Dragon]

As for the magic item stacking feat I think this feat was meant as a way of wearing say ten or more rings instead of two.It was just poorly worded. Wearing two suits of plate armor its just ridiculus no I don't want to say impossible in a game that allows you to swim up waterfalls but perhaps this feat needs to be rewrote to better explain what it means.

 

[Numion]

I have a fool-proof method of solving this kind of (IMHO ridiculous) rule stuff. I can share it with you; it's called

COMMON SENSE.

You probably have an ounce of that in you too; use it Sorry if I come accross as insulting, but 4 suits of armor? Come on...