Level Up (A5E) A couple of spell questions

[Psychman]

With all the things revised and changed with this approach to 5E, I wonder - why did they not change True Strike and Shillelagh?

True Strike is regarded as a terrible spell because it takes an entire action to merely grant advantage on a single attack roll which must be on the next turn, and requires concentration. If it were a bonus action cast, it could be used like the Smite spells and applied on an attack in the same turn. The rare version does improve it somewhat, but possibly only to the point of making it viable.

Shillelagh is great at tier 1, but has no scaling to higher tiers when other damaging cantrips increase their dice of damage and the Martials get Extra Attack. Could it not also increase it's damage in a similar way to other damaging cantrips, or grant an additional attack for it's duration?

 

[W'rkncacnter]

i'm also baffled at how true strike is completely untouched, but i don't really know what you could do for shillelagh. like you said, it sucks currently because it doesn't scale, but it effectively just upgrades a weapon, so you can't scale it by letting you make more attacks with it because...that doesn't really make sense, and you can't scale it by giving it extra damage dice because now suddenly druid 1 for shillelagh is a must-dip for any martial and is obscenely broken since they can get 2 (or 3 in the case of adepts/fighters/marshals) attacks at 2/3/4d8+strength (note that shillelagh states you can use your spellcasting modifier instead of strength for its attack and damage rolls, not must) per attack, depending on level. that's straight up better then a hexblade warlock 1 dip in o5e.

i guess what you could do is make it so that instead of changing a club/quarterstaff's weapon properties, it creates one that you use as a melee spell attack and thus scales independently from extra attack. i guess basically eldritch blast as a druid stick. actually when i put it that way i don't know if i like it.

 

[Psychman]

You make some good points about Shillelagh. Perhaps there could be an additional Druid class or archetype feature that enables a specific form of Extra Attack? Kind of like the Warlock's Thirsting Blade but restricted to a Shillelagh-enhanced weapon?

 

[lichmaster]

Also Arcane Muscles doesn't scale with level. In general I'm not fond of this lack of level scaling for some cantrips.
I'm wondering if changing the normal True Strike as follows would make it interesting:
"Casting time: 1 bonus action. Duration: concentration (1 minute, see text). Effect: for the duration of the effect, your attack rolls gain 1 expertise dice. The spell ends when the duration is over or you have attempted a number of attacks rolls equal to your proeficiency bonus. In addition, for each of these imbued attacks that you forfeit, the expertise dice increases by 1 category for all subsequent attacks"

I'm also thinking about similar tweaks for Shillelagh and Arcane Muscles
EDIT: I'm also thinking about dropping the concentration requirement altogether

 

[xiphumor]

All I can say on this point is that at the very least, they did give us the rare spell mechanic, which allows us to modify those spells into much stronger versions should we choose, without being too fiddly about whether they would be a balanced cantrip.

 

[W'rkncacnter]

"Casting time: 1 bonus action. Duration: concentration (1 minute, see text). Effect: for the duration of the effect, your attack rolls gain 1 expertise dice. The spell ends when the duration is over or you have attempted a number of attacks rolls equal to your proeficiency bonus. In addition, for each of these imbued attacks that you forfeit, the expertise dice increases by 1 category for all subsequent attacks"

honestly, i don't think you'd even need to do this much - true strike's biggest problem has always been action economy. it's simply less effective then just striking twice. given that, you could just do something like
Casting time: 1 bonus action. Duration: 1 round. Effect: Until the start of your next turn, your next attack roll gains 1 expertise die, you cannot suffer disadvantage on it, and you cannot be forced to reroll it.
reducing the casting time to a bonus action makes it so that you no longer need to worry about it being less effective then just striking twice, but advantage is pretty powerful for that so swapping it out for an expertise die makes sense. honestly though, since it's a cantrip, i'm not entirely sure the expertise die is even necessary - negating disadvantage and potential rerolls already sounds pretty good (albeit situational) for a bonus action cantrip to me. yours on the other hand reads a lot like the rare version.

also now that i think of it, when it comes to shillelagh and arcane muscles, you could just say that if you use the attack the spell gives you then you can't use the extra attack feature if you have it and then give them cantrip damage scaling. i think that'd be enough to make them viable for casters to use without making them broken for martials. you could give them eldritch blast attack scaling instead (with the clarification instead being that the attacks given by the spell don't stack with extra attack), but that opens the door to heralds smiting four times in the second round of combat using arcane muscles and i don't think that's a good idea.

 

[lichmaster]

honestly, i don't think you'd even need to do this much - true strike's biggest problem has always been action economy. it's simply less effective then just striking twice. given that, you could just do something like
Casting time: 1 bonus action. Duration: 1 round. Effect: Until the start of your next turn, your next attack roll gains 1 expertise die, you cannot suffer disadvantage on it, and you cannot be forced to reroll it.
reducing the casting time to a bonus action makes it so that you no longer need to worry about it being less effective then just striking twice, but advantage is pretty powerful for that so swapping it out for an expertise die makes sense. honestly though, since it's a cantrip, i'm not entirely sure the expertise die is even necessary - negating disadvantage and potential rerolls already sounds pretty good (albeit situational) for a bonus action cantrip to me. yours on the other hand reads a lot like the rare version.

My rationale for the expertise dice was that I'd want this cantrip to be useful for both spellcasters and non spellcasters. Swapping 1 bonus action for just 1d4 on a single attack is rarely a good swap it if you can just make another (bonus) attack instead. Also, I wanted this cantrip to retain some of the "unerring aim" vibe that advantage gives it (which in 3.5 was a whopping +20 to an attack roll IIRC.)
With this "trading" mechanism I wanted to introduce the trade-off between many attacks with a small bonus to 1 attack with a massive bonus (I love tradeoffs).
Your approach of negating any form of disadvantage or rerolls is interesting, but a bit too situational IMO.

also now that i think of it, when it comes to shillelagh and arcane muscles, you could just say that if you use the attack the spell gives you then you can't use the extra attack feature if you have it and then give them cantrip damage scaling. i think that'd be enough to make them viable for casters to use without making them broken for martials.

This is an interesting approach. Doesn't allow any interesting "combos" for multiclasses but at least gives them some versatility.

you could give them eldritch blast attack scaling instead (with the clarification instead being that the attacks given by the spell don't stack with extra attack), but that opens the door to heralds smiting four times in the second round of combat using arcane muscles and i don't think that's a good idea.

That would only happen at very high levels. Besides, already now they can do that at level 9 if they use two weapons, and most martial weapons do at least 1d6 damage.

 

[W'rkncacnter]

My rationale for the expertise dice was that I'd want this cantrip to be useful for both spellcasters and non spellcasters.

when i said i wasn't 100% certain if the expertise die was necessary, i was referring to my own writeup. probably should have clarified.

Swapping 1 bonus action for just 1d4 on a single attack is rarely a good swap it if you can just make another (bonus) attack instead.

this is only really a concern for twf builds.

Also, I wanted this cantrip to retain some of the "unerring aim" vibe that advantage gives it (which in 3.5 was a whopping +20 to an attack roll IIRC.)

yeah 3.5 true strike was kinda nutty

With this "trading" mechanism I wanted to introduce the trade-off between many attacks with a small bonus to 1 attack with a massive bonus (I love tradeoffs).

i think my main concern is that, for a (base) cantrip, that's...really powerful. like, unusually so.

Your approach of negating any form of disadvantage or rerolls is interesting, but a bit too situational IMO.

once again, i think we need to remember that at the end of the day, true strike is a cantrip. i think it being situational is fine, so long as it isn't so situational as to be outright useless like actual true strike is. disadvantage isn't uncommon. a good number of conditions inflict it on attack rolls, as does a high enough fatigue (which is considerably easier to accrue in a5e then o5e). now, enemies forcing you to reroll attacks...yeah that's pretty rare. i honestly threw that in more as a neat little bonus then anything else. plus, you still get an expertise die on the attack.

That would only happen at very high levels. Besides, already now they can do that at level 9 if they use two weapons, and most martial weapons do at least 1d6 damage.

oh christ, arcane muscles plus a dual-wielding weapon to dump all your smites in one turn. i didn't even think of that...ehhh, actually that requires so much setup that you have a point. fair enough.
edit: that said, i don't really know how i feel about being able to casually get as many - and then at level 17 more - attacks then a fighter for a whole minute by just casting a cantrip, even if they are only at a d8/d6 per attack.

 

[lichmaster]

this is only really a concern for twf builds.

Well, even a sword and board character benefits from the bonus attack with the shield, if the weapon has the defense property. My main point is that there shouldn't be an obviously worse choice.

i think my main concern is that, for a (base) cantrip, that's...really powerful. like, unusually so.

I'm not sure. I mean, the main problem of the original cantrip is the casting time, but still gives advantage. Expertise dice can become better than that on average, you're right with that. But many cantrips at high caster level become more powerful than level 1 or level 2 spells that aren't upcasted

once again, i think we need to remember that at the end of the day, true strike is a cantrip. i think it being situational is fine, so long as it isn't so situational as to be outright useless like actual true strike is. disadvantage isn't uncommon. a good number of conditions inflict it on attack rolls, as does a high enough fatigue (which is considerably easier to accrue in a5e then o5e). now, enemies forcing you to reroll attacks...yeah that's pretty rare. i honestly threw that in more as a neat little bonus then anything else. plus, you still get an expertise die on the attack.

No reroll can be a nice ribbon feature, even if it's situational. Ignoring possible sources of disadvantage is also cool and generally quite useful. As I said, I wanted to preserve the flavor of uncanny aim to the spell, and a single expertise dice isn't enough for that. That said, it would require a quite high level character to gain a large bonus, and would sacrifice all possible attacks for that (which means that to use it constantly, the character would have to sacrifice the bonus action every round)

oh christ, arcane muscles plus a dual-wielding weapon to dump all your smites in one turn. i didn't even think of that...ehhh, actually that requires so much setup that you have a point. fair enough.
edit: that said, i don't really know how i feel about being able to casually get as many - and then at level 17 more - attacks then a fighter for a whole minute by just casting a cantrip, even if they are only at a d8/d6 per attack.

Totally agree with you on this. It would be ok for an Adept feature, but they already have flurry of blows for that. Flurry requires ki expenditure, while a similar cantrip could go on indefinitely, surely too much. I think your previous option was probably better (i.e. scaling damage and removing synergies with Extra Attack).
That said, the nova potential of heralds with a5e can be really nuts!

 

[W'rkncacnter]

Well, even a sword and board character benefits from the bonus attack with the shield, if the weapon has the defense property. My main point is that there shouldn't be an obviously worse choice.

i completely forgot about the defensive property attack tbh, and the cantrip can be tweaked but i don't particularly mind either way. the point of twf builds is to get more attacks anyway, whereas true strike (to me) elicits the image of a single highly precise attack. it not being great for twf builds is acceptable to me, but i would like to know what exactly you'd change.

I'm not sure. I mean, the main problem of the original cantrip is the casting time, but still gives advantage. Expertise dice can become better than that on average, you're right with that. But many cantrips at high caster level become more powerful than level 1 or level 2 spells that aren't upcasted

okay, but they don't become meta like i think your proposed true strike would for (most) martials. and typically those cantrips you mention are damaging cantrips - they are, effectively, at-will attacks meant to roughly keep up with martial attacks. i don't think these are comparable.

No reroll can be a nice ribbon feature, even if it's situational. Ignoring possible sources of disadvantage is also cool and generally quite useful. As I said, I wanted to preserve the flavor of uncanny aim to the spell, and a single expertise dice isn't enough for that.

the uncanny aim flavour is exactly why i included no forced rerolling/disadvantage - you are, essentially, completely overcoming any penalties short of full cover. having perfect aim through magical darkness without being able to see into it sounds pretty uncanny to me. that said...i can see only one expertise die on one attack (and it'd have to be either the first attack of your action or a reaction attack that can't be guaranteed to even be attempted) most of the time feeling lackluster. my first instinct would probably be to make the die scale with level - so 1d4, then 1d6 at 5th, 1d8 at 11th, 1d10 at 17th. of course, the problem there is that normally you can only ever have up to a d8 expertise die, which i don't really mind the spell breaking, but it does mean once you hit 11th level then you effectively don't need to try to get any other source of expertise dice on your attacks anymore since you can never get that 1d12 anyway. maybe a clause to specify that your expertise die with that attack can be as high as a 1d12 instead of the normal 1d8. so perhaps something like
Casting time: 1 bonus action. Duration: 1 round. Effect: Until the start of your next turn, your next attack roll gains a 1d4 expertise die, you cannot suffer disadvantage on the attack, and you cannot be forced to reroll it. Your expertise die for this attack can reach as high as a 1d12 instead of the normal 1d8. The expertise die gained from this spell increases by one step when you reach 5th level (1d6), 11th level (1d8), and 17th level (1d10).

That said, it would require a quite high level character to gain a large bonus, and would sacrifice all possible attacks for that (which means that to use it constantly, the character would have to sacrifice the bonus action every round)

i'm not particularly concerned about a high level character slamming out with a particularly high bonus on one attack each round. that's pretty good, but at the end of the day it's still just one attack, and it isn't like pathfinder 2e where that's helping you crit as well. i'm concerned about a high level character being able to easily generate expertise dice on all their attacks every round. an average of +3 (or, well, +2.5) to hit every turn on all of your attacks in exchange for a bonus action every other turn is an INSANELY good deal for, say, great weapon users or ranged characters. also, something i just realized - because of how expertise dice work, once you hit 9th level, you can essentially have your cake and eat it too, since expertise dice normally cap at 1d8. so you sacrifice 2 true strike attacks to make 1 attack at d20+prof+ability mod+1d8, then make a second attack at d20+prof+ability mod+1d4. for any build without a regular use for a bonus action, that's pretty crazy, plus that second attack matches the first at level 17.

Totally agree with you on this. It would be ok for an Adept feature, but they already have flurry of blows for that. Flurry requires ki expenditure, while a similar cantrip could go on indefinitely, surely too much. I think your previous option was probably better (i.e. scaling damage and removing synergies with Extra Attack).

yeah. unfortunate, but what can you do?

That said, the nova potential of heralds with a5e can be really nuts!

fighter/heralds are also pretty scary. just a few levels in fighter and suddenly a herald gets a second form of smite (from the brute fighter's 3rd level feature) and eventual access to 5th level maneuvers.

edit: also, i started looking through bonus action combat maneuvers on the level up site to see what sort of maneuvers could compete with our versions of true strike, and the first one that popped up was agile feint, a second degree mirror's glint maneuver that costs two exertion to...grant advantage on your next attack. in other words, the game itself believes that a bonus action true strike should not only not be available before 4th level, but should cost class resources (unlike a cantrip). so...there's that.