A CR 2 Triton can summon a CR 3 Water Elemental?

[Noumenon]

Why? Even in a 1st level party, that's not a huge number of resources.

Actually, it's 100% of their spell-slot resources (for a 1st level party with a wizard, a cleric, and one bonus spell each). Time to rest!

By the time it has attacked two targets, two of the other party members can be very far away from the elemental.

Out of water, but not in water with the swim speed of 90.

I do like the idea of making buff spells more useful with 4E-fighter's-mark-simulating uses of Bluff and Intimidate.

 

[avin]

I have very fond memories of a player of mine dying by some lovely Fire Salamanders. When I'm running 3.5 I use to avoid that kind of spell, things can turn quickly into a mess.

 

[Hella_Tellah]

Yes, but remember that the triton has full control over the summoned elemental, so he can direct it to attack a different target after discovering that the first was rebuffed by protection from alignment (or maybe just have it bypass the tanks and attack the squishier targets behind).

He does?

If you can communicate with the creature, you can direct it not to attack, to attack particular enemies, or to perform other actions.

Tritons do speak Aquan, so they can speak with the elemental and give it directions, probably as a move action as per the Handle Animal rules. Still, the triton has no Spellcraft, either, unless he has class levels, so he'll have to figure out what's going on with his 13 Int--probably good enough to grok it in a couple of rounds, if he's watching. But the triton, if the DM is playing him as the book directs, isn't watching. He's riding away on his riding porpoise.

The reclusive tritons prefer to avoid combat, but they fiercely defend their homes. They attack with either melee or ranged weapons as the circumstances warrant. When encountered outside their lair, they are 90% likely to be mounted on friendly sea creatures such as porpoises.

Really, if the PCs encounter one triton outside his layer and attack him (he's Neutral Good, remember), it's basically an encounter with whatever he summons for 7 rounds. A CR 3 creature with all the weaknesses of a summoning is a pretty fair CR 2, if you ask me.

 

[nightwyrm]

I think we're wandering away from the point of the thread here. Most of us won't care about whether tritons can talk with his water elementals. What the concern should be is that a monster of CR X can summon creatures of CR X+, and yet by the rules of CR and XP, the encounter is still considered CR X because the ability to summon "has been taken into account" when the original monster was assigned with CR X.

I suppose that one of the consideration originally was that summoned creatures disappear after a few rounds, thus it was ok for CR X to summon CR X+. But the reality of 3.5 combat is that most combat is so short in terms of rounds that most summons won't disappear before the combat ends. I played a druid from lv 1 to 6 in a game and none of my summons ever disappeared before the combat ends. I know, personal anacdotes is not indicative of anything, but it's just my personal experience that summons are just about as good as a permanent creature in combat.

 

[Jhaelen]

I played a druid from lv 1 to 6 in a game and none of my summons ever disappeared before the combat ends.

I can easily counter that with anecdotes from a player's druid in my campaign. Often the summoned monsters were only good for blocking attack from a single enemy for a single round. They were still mostly worthwhile, helping the cleric to save some much-needed healing power.

The Triton is, btw. hardly the only monster that can (potentially) summon monsters that have a higher EL than their summoner. Personally, I'm either pre-rolling the summoning chance or simply decide if the summon is successful, so I know beforehand how difficult the encounter will be.

I'd also recommend to increase the XP gained from the encounter if summoned creatures are involved similar to the xp adjustments for favorable environments.

 

[Hella_Tellah]

I think we're wandering away from the point of the thread here. Most of us won't care about whether tritons can talk with his water elementals. What the concern should be is that a monster of CR X can summon creatures of CR X+, and yet by the rules of CR and XP, the encounter is still considered CR X because the ability to summon "has been taken into account" when the original monster was assigned with CR X.

I don't think I've wandered at all. The way the DM is meant to play the triton is crucial to understanding why a CR of 2 is appropriate for the triton. If he's meant to run away, then the only real combat challenge a triton presents is the creature it might summon before running. Giving a CR 3 creature all of the weaknesses of a summoned creature--powerless against anything with protection from x, unable to enter a circle of protection, dispelable, and gone in 7 rounds--merits knocking it down to a CR of 2. Therefore, the triton played as written makes a good CR 2 challenge. If you have the triton summon a water elemental, stand firm, and fight, then it ought to have a higher CR. That's not what tritons do, though.

There are plenty of examples of bad CR assignment in D&D (Giant Monstrous Crab, you sly old devil, you), but I don't think the triton is one of them.

 

[Runestar]

Giving a CR 3 creature all of the weaknesses of a summoned creature--powerless against anything with protection from x, unable to enter a circle of protection, dispelable, and gone in 7 rounds--merits knocking it down to a CR of 2.

But how many of these are viable options for a 1st or 2nd lv party? They will likely be forced to enter combat, or run for their lives and wait out its duration. It seems like against them, the summoned monster will be the equivalent of a proper monster. And if the triton opts to summon something else...

 

[Hella_Tellah]

But how many of these are viable options for a 1st or 2nd lv party? They will likely be forced to enter combat, or run for their lives and wait out its duration. It seems like against them, the summoned monster will be the equivalent of a proper monster. And if the triton opts to summon something else...

The PCs aren't meant to encounter 1 solitary triton at level 2--they're meant to find a company (2-5), squad (6-11), or band (20-80), and 90% of them are meant to be mounted. So a single CR 2 triton as an ECL 2 encounter isn't what the rulebook is counseling, here; they're supposed to be encountered en masse and with animals to ride upon as parter of a larger, higher ECL group.

Let's see...

A company of 4 tritons each riding porpoises makes for a total ECL of 7. If they act as the Monster Manual says they should and summon their CR 3 water elementals, then run, the party is left with 4 CR 3 elementals, for an ECL of 7--and the elementals have the weaknesses described previously, so it's actually on the easy side of ECL 7.

I'm actually a bit surprised at how well that math works out!

Those weaknesses I described earlier apply to anything they summon, not just elementals, so even if they all summon a CR 4 Giant Crocodile, that's still just an ECL 8 encounter--less, really, because of the dispelling and 7-round duration and whatnot. I expect a party of four 7th-level adventurers will have the wherewithal to deal with whatever the tritons summon quite nicely.

 

[pawsplay]

Actually, it's 100% of their spell-slot resources (for a 1st level party with a wizard, a cleric, and one bonus spell each). Time to rest!

Expending all your spell slots to take no damage at all from an EL 2, for a 1st level party, is more than just adequate. By the book, there should be a slight risk of death, but in this case, there is virtually none.

Is two tritons, in the water, tougher than most EL 4 encounters for a 1st level party? Yes, but party level +3 encounters have to be examined carefully, and exotic environments is not something most 1st level parties are ready for anyway. But put the same encounter up against a single 5th level wizard... most likely, both elementals will be dispelled in round one, or he can jsut can cast prot X on himself and start zotting the tritons.

You can be just as cruel to a 1st level party with a 4th level orc barbarian, if you want. Again, when the party is outmatched, specific weaknesses make a big difference. In this example, the issue is that the orc will always deal more damage than most of them have in hit points.

 

[Runestar]

Or the wizard could luck out with a sleep spell...