A critique and review of the Fighter class

[Neonchameleon]

It's not the biggest bonus. But it's big enough to be a major decision to lose for the same +1 in another score

The more attacks fighters make the more losing a point of damage off each attack impacts them.

 

[Jefe Bergenstein]

That is what they got however. You may not like it, but are you honestly trying to claim that swapping a fighting style is of equal value as swapping a wizard cantrip? Your problem with martial versatility seems to be going back to the often repeated naked powergrab to make fighter the best at anything & be able to mirror anything any other class can do while maintaining everything fighter already has an edge on. Earlier someone actually complained that a fighter couldn't be as good in the role of party face as a bard with expertise.

Since you seem hung up on the fighter's inability to switch catrips like wizards can though, the nearest equivalent for fighters swapping them is in the lower left of PHB193 with a time cost significantly less than the wizard cantrip formula feature. While the wizard class is fairly limited in how many cantrips they can have at once no matter what the fighter's again very generous nearequivalent can be found on PHB176 & PHB149.

"Garbage is what you got. Be grateful for garbage! The devs have decreed it, and their design is perfect!" I acknowledged the trash offered, and much like Oliver, "I'd like some more, please". Because it was less than what classes that already had more got.

Not only do I think they should get to swap on a rest, they should get a new style every couple of levels. Casters get new spell levels.

The non-caster frankly SHOULD be the best! They don't get plot coupons. They don't get to break the laws of physics. Anything they do, should be better than characters that can ignore reality. Honestly, the wizard should be the worst at magic because the get to repick their superpowers after a nap. The swiss army knife should be worse at any function than a single use tool.

But hey, it aint called Fighters of the Coast. They saw the hissyfits player spoiled on 3E pitched when casters were merely somewhat better in 4E and knew where their bread was buttered. After all, anyone who cared about martial parity moved on to a more equitable game. D&D has created a culture of caster supremacy for 20+ years easily.

It would probably blow your mind that in most games, just being able to cast costs class design space. You spend a feat equivalent in Savage Worlds just to cast. You spend another for every 2 spells known!

 

[tetrasodium]

"Garbage is what you got. Be grateful for garbage! The devs have decreed it, and their design is perfect!" I acknowledged the trash offered, and much like Oliver, "I'd like some more, please". Because it was less than what classes that already had more got.

Not only do I think they should get to swap on a rest, they should get a new style every couple of levels. Casters get new spell levels.

The non-caster frankly SHOULD be the best! They don't get plot coupons. They don't get to break the laws of physics. Anything they do, should be better than characters that can ignore reality. Honestly, the wizard should be the worst at magic because the get to repick their superpowers after a nap. The swiss army knife should be worse at any function than a single use tool.

But hey, it aint called Fighters of the Coast. They saw the hissyfits player spoiled on 3E pitched when casters were merely somewhat better in 4E and knew where their bread was buttered. After all, anyone who cared about martial parity moved on to a more equitable game. D&D has created a culture of caster supremacy for 20+ years easily.

It would probably blow your mind that in most games, just being able to cast costs class design space. You spend a feat equivalent in Savage Worlds just to cast. You spend another for every 2 spells known!

Personally I think it's a pretty mediocre ability but there's a couple of factors that partially mitigate this particular elements of 5e's broader ham fisted areas of design. Firstly fighting styles are rather powerful always on abilities not limited by thing's like spell slots. Secondly the fighter is already a very powerful class in combat.

Why are you stuck on fighting styles though? Wasn't the pretense that fighters don't have enough noncombat options because a hard with expertise is a better party face than a merely competent party face fighter not too long ago?

 

[Jefe Bergenstein]

Personally I think it's a pretty mediocre ability but there's a couple of factors that partially mitigate this particular elements of 5e's broader ham fisted areas of design. Firstly fighting styles are rather powerful always on abilities not limited by thing's like spell slots. Secondly the fighter is already a very powerful class in combat.

Why are you stuck on fighting styles though? Wasn't the pretense that fighters don't have enough noncombat options because a hard with expertise is a better party face than a merely competent party face fighter not too long ago?

I personally don't think they're ahead of other classes in combat. I also think they are woefully outclassed out of combat. I think they need a small boost in combat, and a large boost outside of combat.

You keep wringing your hands about a power boost for fighters but every class but them got a straight up power boost in Tasha's. Letting them swap styles (or stances even) would at least keep them on par with what everyone else got.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

I feel if 5e were made today, fighters would get a fighting style at 1st, 6th, and 16th levels.

Maybe. I'm not sure that would really do much to help, but it definitely seems possible.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

"Garbage is what you got. Be grateful for garbage! The devs have decreed it, and their design is perfect!" I acknowledged the trash offered, and much like Oliver, "I'd like some more, please". Because it was less than what classes that already had more got.

Not only do I think they should get to swap on a rest, they should get a new style every couple of levels. Casters get new spell levels.

The game isn't a 1st grader's birthday party. This is the same mentality that leads people to absurdly think that the hexblade is broken compared to other warlocks, because they have a higher number of mechanical benefits. If one character gets a single feature that yeets enemies when the PC looks at them angrily, and another gets 12 ways to suggest to the enemy that they really aren't going to get anything out of this fight and should maybe just move on, the guy with 12 features isn't the more powerful. In the case of the hexblade, they get what is needed to make them a melee class. once you actually put them in play, they essentially have the ability to add prof bonus to damage against a single target for a minute 1 per short rest and heal a little when the target dies, compared to the fey ability to charm or frighten, and the telepathy of the GOO, and the fiend's temp HP every time they kill something.

Likewise, the wizard is not more powerful than the cleric or druid, the two most similar classes.

The non-caster frankly SHOULD be the best! They don't get plot coupons. They don't get to break the laws of physics. Anything they do, should be better than characters that can ignore reality. Honestly, the wizard should be the worst at magic because the get to repick their superpowers after a nap. The swiss army knife should be worse at any function than a single use tool.

This is completely absurd, and would lead to a terrible game. The wizard already gets the least class features exactly because they get the biggest versatility of spells. However, trying to balance characters by making versatile characters suck when they actually try to do anything just means that those classes aren't actually versatile, they just suck. It's only versatility if the tools work.

But hey, it aint called Fighters of the Coast. They saw the hissyfits player spoiled on 3E pitched when casters were merely somewhat better in 4E and knew where their bread was buttered. After all, anyone who cared about martial parity moved on to a more equitable game. D&D has created a culture of caster supremacy for 20+ years easily.

Bit overwraught, not to mention needlessly insulting to other gamers and posters.

It would probably blow your mind that in most games, just being able to cast costs class design space. You spend a feat equivalent in Savage Worlds just to cast. You spend another for every 2 spells known!

It would blow absolutely no one's mind, ever. It's not especially revolutionary.

 

[tetrasodium]

I personally don't think they're ahead of other classes in combat. I also think they are woefully outclassed out of combat. I think they need a small boost in combat, and a large boost outside of combat.

You keep wringing your hands about a power boost for fighters but every class but them got a straight up power boost in Tasha's. Letting them swap styles (or stances even) would at least keep them on par with what everyone else got.

That bold bit is a bit off the mark. Some of what you are calling a "power boost" was just an option. The thrown weapon fighting style is an objective boost for thrown weapon fighter builds. Sure 99.999_ percent of fighters will ever use it, but it's a boost. The ability to swap cantrips does nothing about the problems with cantrips and is likely of marginal use beyond mere flavor for a similar percentage of wizards.

I don't object to fighters being improved in a well considered way. The objection is trying to use bad data & questionable anecdotes that ignore how the system as a whole functions to justify problematic & overpowered features.


Edit: not giving enough consideration to the system as a whole and how things combine/compare is no doubt responsible for a lot of 5e's self inflicted wounds & problematicaly designed elements.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

BM gets not just maneuver dice but actual maneuvers. And the common and lasting critique pre-Tasha's is that when you get to pick more maneuvers you are picking from the list of maneuvers not worth it al L3. But. If you've decided that, e.g. as a great weapon fighter Precision Attack and Riposte will be enough for combat (and they will) then you basically don't give up any combat potential by taking Tactical Assessment (Superiority dice on History, Investigation, and Insight) or Commander's Presence (Performance and Persuasion).

I complain about Fighters all the tiem but I agree this fix (while minor) was a good start

 

[GMforPowergamers]

"Garbage is what you got. Be grateful for garbage! The devs have decreed it, and their design is perfect!" I acknowledged the trash offered, and much like Oliver, "I'd like some more, please". Because it was less than what classes that already had more got.

lol... right there with the bowl next to you

Not only do I think they should get to swap on a rest, they should get a new style every couple of levels. Casters get new spell levels.

i will even go on farther there should be BIGGER choices every few levels as well so a 7th or 5th level fighter can pick a better fighting style then a 1st level one

 

[GMforPowergamers]

The objection is trying to use bad data & questionable anecdotes that ignore how the system as a whole functions to justify problematic & overpowered features.

I object to people who claim there is not issue or that the issue is a feature not a bug get ANY voice in trying to fix the issue... especially when they just keep shutting down and engaging in arguments