A critique and review of the Fighter class

[Mort]

It's worth noting that most classes got straight up boosts in Tasha's. Wizards can swap their cantrips on a daily basis. Clerics and paladins can channel to recover spells. Druids can summon familiars. Versatility is power.

Fighters got the ability to retrain every 4 levels...

Would it really have been so much if fighters could change their style on a short/long rest?

Tasha's also gives fighters out of combat uses for their maneuver dice - allowing them to add a significant amount to a check when needed.

It's a baby step, but it's huge relative to the 0 they were getting before!

 

[Bill Zebub]

I just read this. For clarification sake, I was referring to the bard trope of sleeping around (with adults), and kids following them around in the streets. Sorry, just didn't want anyone to misconstrue this.

I did almost post a response about Michael Jackson...

 

[Jefe Bergenstein]

Tasha's also gives fighters out of combat uses for their maneuver dice - allowing them to add a significant amount to a check when needed.

It's a baby step, but it's huge relative to the 0 they were getting before!

If they're a battlemaster. And if they take those maneuvers. That's the equivalent of expanding the feat list. Not comparable to being able to repick a cantrip daily, or turn one resource to another on the fly.

Lets not ignore the fact that maneuvers are basically the equivalent of a wizard only being able to prep 1st level spells. There should be level restricted maneuvers that do bigger things. All the fighter gets is increasing their maneuver dice. QWLF all over again.

 

[Neonchameleon]

Only at high (11+) levels.

Otherwise, fighters don't get near as much to add as other classes (paladins get smite and some other spells, rangers get hunters mark and some other spells, barbarians get rage etc.) so they feel that +1 more (and remember it's 1 less to hit AND damage so it's not just 5%).

Now the BM fighter gets maneuver dice that can both mitigate the to hit and significantly add to damage - so that's good. But, they only get 4 initially and if they want to use any in another pillar - they have to manage that resource very stringently. And, again, they then have to directly sacrifice combat prowess for help with another pillar.

I'm going to step in here and defend the post-Tasha's Battlemaster fighter.

First the Battlemaster may only get 4 superiority dice at level 3 - but that's per short or long rest. Meanwhile Paladin smites are per long rest. So if a Battlemaster is getting one short rest in a day that's enough d8s to keep up with the smiting from all the paladin's L1 spells combined - and maneuvers have riders while Smites just do damage. The paladin (any subclass) is notably better than the Champion at combat - but not than the Battlemaster because it's not a basically useless subclass.

Second the BM gets not just maneuver dice but actual maneuvers. And the common and lasting critique pre-Tasha's is that when you get to pick more maneuvers you are picking from the list of maneuvers not worth it al L3. But. If you've decided that, e.g. as a great weapon fighter Precision Attack and Riposte will be enough for combat (and they will) then you basically don't give up any combat potential by taking Tactical Assessment (Superiority dice on History, Investigation, and Insight) or Commander's Presence (Performance and Persuasion).

In general there are more chances to take short rests round the social pillar than when people want your blood. And when you talk about "managing resources very stringently" surely this applies more to the long rest dependent paladin than the short rest dependent fighter?

 

[tetrasodium]

If they're a battlemaster. And if they take those maneuvers. That's the equivalent of expanding the feat list. Not comparable to being able to repick a cantrip daily, or turn one resource to another on the fly.

Lets not ignore the fact that maneuvers are basically the equivalent of a wizard only being able to prep 1st level spells. There should be level restricted maneuvers that do bigger things. All the fighter gets is increasing their maneuver dice. QWLF all over again.

Spoiler: There's this

MARTIAL VERSATILITY
4th-level fighter feature
Whenever you reach a level in this class that grants
the Ability Score Improvement feature, you can do
one of the following, as you shift the focus of your
martial practice:
• Replace a fighting style you know with another
fighting style available to fighters.
If you know any maneuvers from the Battle Mas
ter archetype, you can replace one maneuver you
know with a different maneuver.

 

[Jefe Bergenstein]

Spoiler: There's this

MARTIAL VERSATILITY
4th-level fighter feature
Whenever you reach a level in this class that grants
the Ability Score Improvement feature, you can do
one of the following, as you shift the focus of your
martial practice:
• Replace a fighting style you know with another
fighting style available to fighters.
If you know any maneuvers from the Battle Mas
ter archetype, you can replace one maneuver you
know with a different maneuver.

Did you just not read what I wrote? Retraining one option every FOUR levels is essentially nothing given that other classes get flexibility within the same day.

 

[Bill Zebub]

Would it really have been so much if fighters could change their style on a short/long rest?

I know most of the requests are for out-of-combat utility, but I do wish the Fighter had some kind of “stance” mechanic. (Which is really what the barbarian’s Reckless Attack is.)

 

[Mannahnin]

I know most of the requests are for out-of-combat utility, but I do wish the Fighter had some kind of “stance” mechanic. (Which is really what the barbarian’s Reckless Attack is.)

Even some really simple OSR games have this. LotFP for example, has Press and Defense for Fighters- they may take an offensive stance for +2 to hit, -4 AC, or a defensive stance for +2 AC, -4 to hit.

 

[tetrasodium]

Did you just not read what I wrote? Retraining one option every FOUR levels is essentially nothing given that other classes get flexibility within the same day.

That is what they got however. You may not like it, but are you honestly trying to claim that swapping a fighting style is of equal value as swapping a wizard cantrip? Your problem with martial versatility seems to be going back to the often repeated naked powergrab to make fighter the best at anything & be able to mirror anything any other class can do while maintaining everything fighter already has an edge on. Earlier someone actually complained that a fighter couldn't be as good in the role of party face as a bard with expertise.

Since you seem hung up on the fighter's inability to switch catrips like wizards can though, the nearest equivalent for fighters swapping them is in the lower left of PHB193 with a time cost significantly less than the wizard cantrip formula feature. While the wizard class is fairly limited in how many cantrips they can have at once no matter what the fighter's again very generous nearequivalent can be found on PHB176 & PHB149.

 

[Minigiant]

I would say it's less critical. They have a 5% decrease in chance to hit, but their overall damage is spread across multiple attacks. Measured as impact on DPR (which has an overrated focus as measure of overall effectiveness IMHO), the reduction will affect fighters less than most classes.

It's not the biggest bonus. But it's big enough to be a major decision to lose for the same +1 in another score

It's worth noting that most classes got straight up boosts in Tasha's. Wizards can swap their cantrips on a daily basis. Clerics and paladins can channel to recover spells. Druids can summon familiars. Versatility is power.

Fighters got the ability to retrain every 4 levels...

Would it really have been so much if fighters could change their style on a short/long rest?

I feel if 5e were made today, fighters would get a fighting style at 1st, 6th, and 16th levels.