A critique and review of the Fighter class

[Bill Zebub]

The criticisms that people think they should be able to use it every rage is that every other barbarian subclass works that way.

Sure. But that doesn't seem to acknowledge that the benefit of frenzy is so much greater than those other benefits. (Unless you also have GWM and you're fighting groups of minions...but I don't think it should be designed around that case.)

It's odd that the easiest class to understand and build was given a complex rage upgrade in their subclass whereas the most complex martial class to build and understand was deem the simple class.

Ok, I won't try to argue with "odd", although I thought Fighter was the easiest class to understand. And I'm not sure "odd" explains/justifies the rhetoric and vitriol.

 

[Neonchameleon]

I dunno. I get the sense from the criticisms that people think they should be able to use it every rage. But it’s a straight up 100% bonus to damage at Tier 1, and 50% after that.

Except that as mentioned it isn't. It doesn't trigger in the first round in which you rage which drastically reduces its effectiveness as front loaded damage is always more important. It also only provides that damage bonus if you ignore feats - and most barbarians' favourite feat is Great Weapon Fighter, while Pole Arm Master is pretty good as well. I'd estimate that abut half the barbarians I've seen have taken GWF at level 4 - meaning that you've only a single level where it's even remotely what you say.

 

[Minigiant]

Sure. But that doesn't seem to acknowledge that the benefit of frenzy is so much greater than those other benefits. (Unless you also have GWM and you're fighting groups of minions...but I don't think it should be designed around that case.)

That goes with how every other babraian works different from Berserker.

The PHB gives you two barbarians: one with a toggled huge upgrade and one with an always on big upgrade.
Then every other subclass follows the latter.

Ok, I won't try to argue with "odd", although I thought Fighter was the easiest class to understand. And I'm not sure "odd" explains/justifies the rhetoric and vitriol.

The Barbarian is way simpler.

• Primary Score:
• Build Choices: Only subclass at level 3
• Tactics: Run forward n Smash. Reckless Attack if you want. Rage if monster is scary.

Vs Fighter's

• Primary Score: 2 STR or DEX
• Build Choices: Fighting Style at level 1. Subclass at level 3. Feat/ASI at level 6
• Tactics: Varies

 

[Bill Zebub]

Except that as mentioned it isn't. It doesn't trigger in the first round in which you rage which drastically reduces its effectiveness as front loaded damage is always more important. It also only provides that damage bonus if you ignore feats - and most barbarians' favourite feat is Great Weapon Fighter, while Pole Arm Master is pretty good as well. I'd estimate that abut half the barbarians I've seen have taken GWF at level 4 - meaning that you've only a single level where it's even remotely what you say.

I agree that it should be useful in the first round. But even as it is, in a 4-round fight it will increase your damage by 75%. How is that anything other than $&@#ing amazing? If you get that once every third adventuring day it’s good. And in a pinch you can use it multiple times a day!

As for the GWM thing, I keep addressing that but you either don’t care, don’t understand, or disagree. Whatever.

 

[Bill Zebub]

That goes with how every other babraian works different from Berserker.

And every fighter subclass works differently than Battlemaster. What’s the problem?

 

[Minigiant]

And every fighter subclass works differently than Battlemaster. What’s the problem?

There isn't the problem.

What I am saying is you shouldn't be confused that others criticize why 1 path has a toggle and every the other 7 dont. So many would assume Flurry was supposed to be always on.

The Fighter at least started with a always on subclass, a spell sublclass, and resoruce subclass and got more of all three as time passed.

 

[Neonchameleon]

I agree that it should be useful in the first round. But even as it is, in a 4-round fight it will increase your damage by 75%. How is that anything other than $&@#ing amazing?

Again it's backloaded.

Let's compare it with another class that does something similar. The Beast subclass. The beast subclass, of course, needs to be one handed but as such can use a shield. It doesn't have to go in with the extra attack; instead it can tank - but when it does go all out on damage it gets an extra attack on the turn it rages. Or when it tanks it has a reactive AC bonus on top of the shield. At T1 the claws barbarian takes until about round 4 for the frenzied barbarian to overtake. Which is longer than many fights go on - but the claws barbarian can do this every fight.

Or let's look at the Zealot. The first foe the barbarian hits each round takes an extra d6+ half level damage. Which is about half the damage of an extra attack with a two handed weapon. Round 1 the zealot will be ahead, and round 2 it will be about break even. Again it takes the third round of the fight before the berserker takes the lead (and that if e.g. great weapon master's bonus attack doesn't proc). T2+ this of course scales better than the bonus action attack and you've two rather than one chances of proccing it.

So yeah, by the time the fight is over the berserker may have done more damage than a high damage barbarian from another path. Once per day - and it will have been slower out of the starting blocks. And that's only if the berserker frenzies while the beast and the Zealot are doing this every rage.

As for the GWM thing, I keep addressing that but you either don’t care, don’t understand, or disagree. Whatever.

Your defence seems to be that in the specific situation of a boss with no minions (that is going to be torn apart by the action economy). So it's an edge case.

 

[James Gasik]

To be fair, the Clawbarian and the Zealot were created later; it might be that WotC realized they were a bit too conservative with the Berserker, but given their desire to keep the PHB "evergreen" with very little changes, the subclass was allowed to grow fallow as they printed better options.

 

[Bill Zebub]

There isn't the problem.

What I am saying is you shouldn't be confused that others criticize why 1 path has a toggle and every the other 7 dont. So many would assume Flurry was supposed to be always on.

The Fighter at least started with a always on subclass, a spell sublclass, and resoruce subclass and got more of all three as time passed.

Sure, but…minor criticism? The game is filled with mechanics whose use is more subtle than is immediately apparent. And after the first combat or two they’ll figure it out. If they are really that disappointed (and who hasn’t found subclasses disappointing?) they can ask the DM if they can change.

Look, I understand the point, but…really? While I disagree with the assessment of how great a feature Frenzy is, I can at least acknowledge that if you think it’s not worth the downside it’s a bad design.

But this whole “it’s different from other barbarian subclasses and people will be confused” argument strikes me as grasping at straws.

 

[James Gasik]

Especially since we're looking at this from the eyes of a new player who is somehow comparing the first subclass to all the others, then, having read the others, goes back to the first one and fails to read it in it's entirety to realize "hey, this one isn't like the others, so if I want an always-on benefit, I shouldn't take this one".

The confusion at this point is the player's own fault.