A different shatter question

[Rafael Ceurdepyr]

I've read the other threads about shatter, but I still want to know this: Why does the description of using shatter against a single object express breakage in pounds when the SRD section about breakage uses hardness and hit points?

Shatter's description in the SRD says: "Alternatively, you can target shatter against a single solid object, regardless of composition, weighing up to 10 pounds per caster level."

How do you determine how much, for example, a strong wooden door weighs? The SRD tells me the hardness and hit points of weapons and doors and walls, but not how much it weighs.

Explanations? What am I missing here?

 

[moritheil]

I've read the other threads about shatter, but I still want to know this: Why does the description of using shatter against a single object express breakage in pounds when the SRD section about breakage uses hardness and hit points?

Shatter's description in the SRD says: "Alternatively, you can target shatter against a single solid object, regardless of composition, weighing up to 10 pounds per caster level."

How do you determine how much, for example, a strong wooden door weighs? The SRD tells me the hardness and hit points of weapons and doors and walls, but not how much it weighs.

Explanations? What am I missing here?

Otherwise the limit is 1 lb. per caster level.

 

[Felix]

It tells the weight of weapons, armor, goods, etc in the equipment section of the PHB.

 

[ardentmoth]

alternatively, 10 pounds is equal to DM's approximation of 10 pounds. different world, different unit of measurement...

 

[Whimsical]

Whenever something is borderline, and you don't want to take the time to search for material density charts. Just make it a 50/50 chance. If the player can only affect 60 lbs. There's half a chance that he will be able to affect a door or not.

 

[Rafael Ceurdepyr]

It tells the weight of weapons, armor, goods, etc in the equipment section of the PHB.

Yes, this is helpful for these kinds of items, thanks. And presumably helps for the locks themselves, if they're considered to weigh 1 lb. Not so helpful for doors though.

I don't understand the rationale, though, for using pounds in the spell description rather than hardness and/or hit points.

 

[Infiniti2000]

I don't understand the rationale, though, for using pounds in the spell description rather than hardness and/or hit points.

Hardness or hit points would not restrict the size of the object. If you could affect wood with shatter (relatively low hardness) then you could destroy a huge number of objects, like say a warship. Do you think a single second-level spell should destroy a warship? It's possible you could rewrite shatter to work in those types of cases, i.e. it doesn't destroy the whole object just punctures a hole in it somewhere, but I'm sure there are other problems (even this example, I don't think a second-level spell should be able to sink a warship) and it would be a lot of work I think to get shatter balanced.

And, that's not to say that shatter's balanced now, but limiting it to general weight of objects is a reasonable start (the second part being a gentlemen's agreement).

 

[Vegepygmy]

I don't understand the rationale, though, for using pounds in the spell description rather than hardness and/or hit points.

I think you raise a very good point.

A good house rule might be something like: you can shatter a single object, regardless of its hardness, as long as its hit points are no more than 10/level (or some other reasonable number). If the object's hit points are more than that amount, the spell has no effect.

 

[akbearfoot]

don't sonic attacks generally ignore objects harness? Isn't shatter a sonic spell? (no book nearby)

So using hardness as a reference for a spell that ignores hardness seems silly.

 

[Vegepygmy]

don't sonic attacks generally ignore objects harness?

No, they do not.

PHB, page 165: "Acid and sonic attacks deal damage to most objects just as they do to creatures; roll damage and apply it normally after a successful hit."

"Normally" in this context means you apply hardness to the full amount of damage, rather than dividing the damage before applying hardness as you do with cold, electricity, and fire damage.