A Disconnect with CHR?

[Dannyalcatraz]

There is no disconnect.

It boils down to this: in D&D and its derivatives, if you want a PC to have good odds at succeeding with Cha-based skills, you need to have a high Cha, put extra points in the skill, or both.

The details of attractiveness vs force of personality is RP, not mechanics: if his positives outweigh his negatives, his Cha is high. If his negatives outweigh his positives, he has a low Cha.

And the rest, as you say, is situational modifiers.

 

[Water Bob]

There is no disconnect.

It boils down to this: in D&D and its derivatives, if you want a PC to have good odds at succeeding with Cha-based skills, you need to have a high Cha, put extra points in the skill, or both.

The details of attractiveness vs force of personality is RP, not mechanics: if his positives outweigh his negatives, his Cha is high. If his negatives outweigh his positives, he has a low Cha.

If there is no disconnect, then how do you explain, mechanically, the quiet, follower type that looks quite intimidating just by the he looks?

For example, let's say you're out in the woods and you run across this guy:

Quite intimidating, yes?

What if this character has a low CHR?

See the disconnect?

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

If there is no disconnect, then how do you explain, mechanically, the quiet, follower type that looks quite intimidating just by the he looks?

He has a high Cha and/or he has ranks in intimidate.

What if this character has a low CHR?

By definition, he either does not have low Cha (see again my explanation above about positives outweighing negatives) OR he has LOTS and LOTS of ranks in Intimidate.

No disconnect.

 

[Water Bob]

He has a high Cha and/or he has ranks in intimidate.



By definition, he either does not have low Cha (see again my explanation above about positives outweighing negatives) OR he has LOTS and LOTS of ranks in Intimidate.

No disconnect.

But, there is a disconnect. You're saying that the character in that pic must either have a lot of ranks in Intimidate or/with a high CHR score.

You're saying that must be true because of the way the character looks.

The disconnect is....that pic could very well be of a 1st level character, with a low CHR and no extra ranks in Intimidate, that does look that way.

The disconnect is....the character is Intimidating by choice of equipment. It has nothing to do with his Intimidate skill or his CHR stat.

With Intimidate skill and a high CHR, the character in the pic is even more intimidating.

Without Intimidate skill and/or a high CHR, the character is....still....intimidating.

The disconnect = right there.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

But, there is a disconnect. You're saying that the character in that pic must either have a lot of ranks in Intimidate or/with a high CHR score.

Yes, because that is the way you've set up the question.

You're saying that must be true because of the way the character looks.

No, I'm saying that since you have stated the guy is intimidating, the rules of the game- the mechanics- say that only happens with some combination of high Cha and skill ranks.

The disconnect is....that pic could very well be of a 1st level character, with a low CHR and no extra ranks in Intimidate, that does look that way.

No, because the rules state otherwise. He may be low Cha or have few ranks, but if he IS intimidating- defined as having a good chance (for his level) of succeeding at an intimidate skill check- he will have enough of one or the other to BE intimidating.

The disconnect is....the character is Intimidating by choice of equipment. It has nothing to do with his Intimidate skill or his CHR stat.

In other games, perhaps, but not in D&D and it's derivatives. You dress me like that, and I wouldn't be intimidating because- despite my great strength- I'm a tub of lard with no weapon training. You dress my tall, skinny buddy Kyle like this, and he, too, might not be impressive...until he starts to move around and displays the fact that he's a black belt.

(That said, some supplements do contain mundane or magical equipment that may grant bonuses to certain skill checks.)

With Intimidate skill and a high CHR, the character in the pic is even more intimidating.

Yes.

Without Intimidate skill and/or a high CHR, the character is....still....intimidating.

Not in D&D and related games. By rule & definition.

The disconnect = right there.

Think of Cha this way:

Cha = (Attractiveness + Personality)/2

So you could have:

Cha 14 = (Att 14 + Pers 14)/2
This person is as good looking as they are personable.

Cha 14 = (Att 35 + Pers -7)/2
This person is incredibly attractive, but has a bad personality...a "diva"?

Cha 14 = (Att -14 + Pers 42)/2
This person is damn ugly, but gives mesmerizing oratories.

A low Cha, OTOH, might look like:

Cha 7 = (Att -14 + Pers 28)/2
Ugly enough that the force of his personality simply gets in the way.

Cha 7 = (Att 28 + Pers -14)/2
Really good looking, but a real SOB

And so forth.

 

[Visigani]

Why not make the first feat a vile feat "willing deformity", take out the "willing" if so inclined and just make it based on those stats?

 

[Twisted Metal]

For the purposes of an Intimidate check, why not invert the penalty from his low Charisma so that it becomes a bonus? The same reasons that make people flinch away from him because of the hideous scarring, would probably make him very good at intimidation - he could've long ago learned to use it to his advantage.

 

[Empirate]

For the purposes of an Intimidate check, why not invert the penalty from his low Charisma so that it becomes a bonus? The same reasons that make people flinch away from him because of the hideous scarring, would probably make him very good at intimidation - he could've long ago learned to use it to his advantage.

Welcome to the board, and don't take this the hard way, it still furthers discussion :

VERY unhelpful post! If people could just do that based on what they imagine a character to look like, the game would break down.

Imagine a Dex 6 PC who is grossly fat, but has nimble fingers: "I should get my Dex penalty as a bonus on skill checks that involve nimble fingers, because I've just described my fingers as nimble despite my bulk!"
Or a wheezing, feeble, consumption-plagued Con 5 character: "But I should get my Con penalty as a bonus to resist poison and disease, since my body has successfully fought off germs in spite of my feebleness!"
Or a Wis 4 Wizard who's a genius, but incredibly absent-minded: "But I need to get my Wis penalty as a bonus on Will saves! I'm so absent-minded I immediately forget about that Mind Flayer's Suggestion!"


That's simply not how the game works. The rules are the rules, and if you can't imagine a situation within the rules, imagine harder. 1st level guy with a big scar and negative Cha mod? Probably simply not that intimidating after all. Yes, he's scary looking, but it's just not enough to give you a penalty to anything - maybe his expression looks all stupid from the scar pulling at his facial tissue, or maybe he's so insecure due to unattractiveness that he has a stutter ("R-r-r-run away w-w-while y-y-you c-c-c. CAN! A-a-a-a-."), or maybe he never looks you in the eye.
You want a scarred guy that's intimidating AND ugly and repulsive? Moderate Cha (strength of personality, but not really the looks to hook members of the other sex), lots of ranks in intimidate, maybe Skill Focus (Intimidate), and you have one scary bastard.

Hell, you can even give the guy high Cha and just roleplay him as so focused on intimidating the crap out of people that his natural force of personality doesn't come to bear. After all, when you're rolling an Intimidate check every round, no potential love interest will stick around long enough...

 

[kitcik]

As far as the scar - depends on the situation again, The difficulty here is that D&D has combined personality and comeliness into one score, whereas the skill Intimidate might benefit from a high personality score and a low comeliness score. And if you allowed players to determine what is driving their charisma, I think they would try to metagame it. So, you just have to make a situational call as a DM.

Think of Cha this way:

Cha = (Attractiveness + Personality)/2

So you could have:

Cha 14 = (Att 14 + Pers 14)/2
This person is as good looking as they are personable.

Cha 14 = (Att 35 + Pers -7)/2
This person is incredibly attractive, but has a bad personality...a "diva"?

Cha 14 = (Att -14 + Pers 42)/2
This person is damn ugly, but gives mesmerizing oratories.

A low Cha, OTOH, might look like:

Cha 7 = (Att -14 + Pers 28)/2
Ugly enough that the force of his personality simply gets in the way.

Cha 7 = (Att 28 + Pers -14)/2
Really good looking, but a real SOB

And so forth.

You could do this, but i don't think it's a good idea for the reason stated above.

Similarly, see [MENTION=78958]Empirate[/MENTION] 's post above.

 

[Water Bob]

Danny, Danny...I know what the rules say. And, when the rules don't match the thing they are trying to model, you have a disconnect. Thus, this thread to talk about it.

Think about it this way. You create two NPCs using the standard array of stats. Both NPCs are human. Both are of the Barbarian class. Both have their standard array stats arranged the same. Both are the same level.

Yet, one of the Barbarians maxes out his Intimidate skill, and he switches his INT score so that his CHR is higher.

The other Barbarian ends up with no points in Intimidate, a higher INT, but a lower CHR.

Now...

Both characters wear the same clothes and armor so that they look like what you see in the pic above.

By the rules, one Barbarian should be more intimidating that the other. (And, this may be true if the Barbarian "plays the part", but we're talking about the Barbarian just standing there, looking at you, not doing anything. Just being menacing.)

But, logic tells you that the Barbarians should have an intimidation factor that is exactly the same, if the Barbarian is just standing there in front of you not doinging anything.

That's the disconnect.

You're saying the rules are 100% correct.

I'm saying that they don't model the Intimidate aspect of the game that well under certain circumstances.