I wasn't suggestion he actually use that as a mechanic. I was using the math to illustrate how most iterations of D&D lumps the 2 factors together into one stat- which I had mentioned upthread.
A Disconnect with CHR?
- Thread starter Water Bob
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I wasn't suggestion he actually use that as a mechanic. I was using the math to illustrate how most iterations of D&D lumps the 2 factors together into one stat- which I had mentioned upthread.
the Jester
Legend
I skipped the majority of this thread, so this may have already been broached but...
Do you give the same bonus to Intimidate to a low-Charisma pc who describes himself as mousy and unimposing?
If not, you're treating the same exact score differently depending on who the pc is.
Ignoring Charisma when it comes to social stats is silly. That's the whole reason it exists. Ignoring it only for pcs that play the "How does the dm want me to describe my character" game, or worse, only for npcs, is terrible dming imho.
Remember, being scary-looking doesn't make you good at Intimidation (the skill). It might make people intimidated by you, but the skill amounts to getting people to do what you want by intimidation, not just looking scary. And getting people to do what you want is pretty much the definition of Charisma.
Do you give the same bonus to Intimidate to a low-Charisma pc who describes himself as mousy and unimposing?
If not, you're treating the same exact score differently depending on who the pc is.
Ignoring Charisma when it comes to social stats is silly. That's the whole reason it exists. Ignoring it only for pcs that play the "How does the dm want me to describe my character" game, or worse, only for npcs, is terrible dming imho.
Remember, being scary-looking doesn't make you good at Intimidation (the skill). It might make people intimidated by you, but the skill amounts to getting people to do what you want by intimidation, not just looking scary. And getting people to do what you want is pretty much the definition of Charisma.
Patryn of Elvenshae
First Post
Exactly.
Let's look at the picture of the guy again:
Isn't it obvious that this guy is a totally badass warrior who will easily take you apart in a fight?
But wait - I've statted him as a Sorcerer 1 who is wielding a greatclub he isn't proficient in and is wearing hide armor he isn't proficient in, so his actual attack bonus is, like, -5.
But look at him - he's obviously a total badass. There's a disconnect in the rules!
Also, Intimidate is not really an "I'm scary!" skill. It is, rather, the "I'm scary and I can use that in a particular way to get you to do exactly what I want, rather than just crapping yourself and curling up into a ball, crying!"
And having played a Sorcerer last year who, at 1st level, was wielding a Maul and wearing Scale armor, I can totally relate to that!
Think of it this way: D&D handles stats at the atomic level, but you're asking questions about the subatomic. It's not a disconnect- the questions you're asking simply don't make sense at the granularity level of D&D.
OTOH, look at HERO. It has completely different stats for attractiveness (Comliness or Com) and force of personality (Presence or Pre). There, your questions not only make sense, the system has a ready answer for you: Intimidating characters have placed points in Pre, in a skill, or in both. While that may seem to be the same as D&D's answer, it isn't because Com is its own distinct stat. You can be ugly or pretty, well-spoken or perpetually tongue tied- you're still intimidating.
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I do appreciate the replies, and I have changed my point of view with regards to what CHR represents is because of this thread.
I still think it's an interesting question, though. And, I do think someone can be quite intimidating just by the look of them. "Yeah, he was a scary moe-foe until he opened his mouth!"
But, I've got a better grasp on the 3.5 version of CHR...and, in a way, it's really going to change my game. Because I've gone from the old school paladin CHR mindset (that high CHR means a charming, respected, eloquent, gregarious leader) to a broader definition of CHR (to where high CHR can mean the the exact opposite of the paladin CHR, where the key difference is force of personality able to attract followers). The paladin in shining armor or the evil necromancer--both can exert their will on others via their personalities, and thus both have high CHR scores.
My original "disconnect" question isn't quite answered, but I feel I'm better prepared to deal with the situation then before I started the thread.
I still think it's an interesting question, though. And, I do think someone can be quite intimidating just by the look of them. "Yeah, he was a scary moe-foe until he opened his mouth!"
But, I've got a better grasp on the 3.5 version of CHR...and, in a way, it's really going to change my game. Because I've gone from the old school paladin CHR mindset (that high CHR means a charming, respected, eloquent, gregarious leader) to a broader definition of CHR (to where high CHR can mean the the exact opposite of the paladin CHR, where the key difference is force of personality able to attract followers). The paladin in shining armor or the evil necromancer--both can exert their will on others via their personalities, and thus both have high CHR scores.
My original "disconnect" question isn't quite answered, but I feel I'm better prepared to deal with the situation then before I started the thread.
Patryn of Elvenshae
First Post
Yay!
Well, here, I think what you're looking at is circumstance bonuses. "He's covered in the blood of the town's mayor whom he just beheaded with a single axe swing; maybe I should do what he wants?"
However, if the guy isn't actually any good at being intimidating (e.g., able to get what he wants by being scary / threatening), then it's possible that he'll flub the roll, and the town's populace will charge him, rather than handing over the hidden princess.
Hitler had a really high Charisma score.
Let me take a stab.
At the core of your question is essentially Danny's response: D&D doesn't support that paradigm. D&D, out of the box, doesn't have a mechanic that works on the granularity of individual appearance.
However, I don't see why you can't have the scar add a permanent circumstance bonus to Intimidated and a compensating negative modifier to Diplomacy/Bluff etc. A "trait" if you will. I think this was airwalkrr's suggestion and may be in one of the sourcebooks. You can offer the same type of modifiers to the PC's as there is a list of "traits" somewhere that improve one skill and undermine a logically related skill.
Regarding the illustration...again..I would treat that as a circumstance bonus to Intimidate. But you have to acknowledge that: 1) guys that look like that may look bad-ass to you, but are a dime a dozen in the Conan setting; 2) the NPC still has to do something to trigger the Intimidate roll...so his low CHR is still going to make him less effective comparably; 3) Perhaps your best bet at making him intimidating to the PC's is to describe him in a way that the players themselves are intimidated and let that influence the character actions.
See, I disagree. I think the disconnect is either the Intimidate skill, or the marriage between CHR and Intimidate.
The CHR stat is so broad that it begs disconnects to happen. Maybe that's the granularity you and Danny are speaking of. Because I think a charcter should be able to suck at being a leader (low CHR) yet be a quite capable fighter that can naturally employ a feint during melee.
I wonder if the mechanics for feint and Intimidate wouldn't be better suited to a different method.
You can be low Cha and skilled at things like bluffing or intimidating- just take ranks in those skills.
Its the same as the difference between someone who can easily play an instrument and someone who has to work at it. I'm in the former class for things like guitars and other stringed instruments- I learn things on them quite easily. However, I don't get a lot of practice, so I peak quickly. I'm nowhere as good as I should be, given my natural talent.
OTOH, people I know who started off at the same time I did, but who actually practice have actually made money as musicians.
In game terms, I have high Cha (used for Perform: guitar), but low skill ranks in it, making me better than newbies, but nothing to write home about.
What you can't be (in any RPG I know of) is both lacking in skill ranks (or whatever training is called) AND the stat the skill works off of while still being good at the skill.
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Explain to me why they later introduced "trait" mechanic doesn't handle the scar in a way that comports with your sense of how it should work?
As far as bad-leader-good-intimidator...I would definitely argue that this is handled by skills. Your low chr makes it harder for you, but can you still learn to be better than the average person and become quite "good" at it.
I thought I saw this concept explained in Danny's last post, but I saw that when I went to quote his post and I didn't see it on the actual thread.
