A discussion of metagame concepts in game design

[Maxperson]

Also, life force - whatever the hell that is - isn't a magical phenomon, but a fighter choosing to draw on his/her reserves so as to push him-/herself hard is?

The wizards used that life force and converted it to magical power. 1) Fighters don't convert anything to magic, and 2) a fighter drawing on reserves in a reasonable manner to push himself isn't something anyone here has objected to.

 

[TwoSix]

Your last line here - is this similar to the idea where if God creates everything hence we are all God or God-infused?

Basically, I have trouble reconciling the idea that things like atoms and electromagnetic forces exist in the same universe where the building blocks of the universe are air, earth, fire, and water. Either a universe is mechanistic or it's supernatural, it can't be both.

We just use Newtonian mechanics to understand basic interactions in a fantasy universe because it's easier for us to imagine.

 

[Sadras]

But fighters' second wind and action surge in 5e are magical, while dragon flight is not?

I still don't get it.

Better. As I said @Aldarc's position defines everything (animate or inanimate) as magical and given his interpretation of the core rule books (at least of 5e) it is fair. It is not something I adopt for my table but it is certainly an interesting idea, IMO.

 

[TwoSix]

Except explicitly not. Darksun defiles use the life force of plants, not magic from anywhere. It takes the life essence and then converts it to magic. It doesn't steal magic from plants and then use it.

But the idea of a "life essence", that can be transferred by will and symbolism, is inherently a magical one. Magic is a worldview, not an attribute.

 

[pemerton]

The wizards used that life force and converted it to magical power.

As I said, what the hell is "life force", and how is it not magical? It's certainly not a real or mundane thing!

a fighter drawing on reserves in a reasonable manner to push himself isn't something anyone here has objected to.

Multiple posterson this thread (you as one) have argued that action surge and/or second wind are metagame, because they are decisions taken by a player that do not correlate to decisions taken by that player's character.

 

[pemerton]

Better. As I said @Aldarc's position defines everything (animate or inanimate) as magical and given his interpretation of the core rule books (at least of 5e) it is fair. It is not something I adopt for my table but it is certainly an interesting idea, IMO.

It's not [MENTION=5142]Aldarc[/MENTION]'s position that I don't get!

It's the position advocated by [MENTION=6698278]Emerikol[/MENTION] and others.

 

[pemerton]

We just use Newtonian mechanics to understand basic interactions in a fantasy universe because it's easier for us to imagine.

I wouldn't even go this far. I think that most of the physical events/interactions in a fantasy game happen at a sufficiently high level of abstraction and granularity that common sense tropes are enough to sort them out.

But do carts come to a halt because of friction, or because Newton's first law doesn't hold, or because the air impedes the motion of the earth?

The D&D rules certainly don't answer this question. I don't know of any FRPG that does.

 

[Flexor the Mighty!]

Basically, I have trouble reconciling the idea that things like atoms and electromagnetic forces exist in the same universe where the building blocks of the universe are air, earth, fire, and water. Either a universe is mechanistic or it's supernatural, it can't be both.

We just use Newtonian mechanics to understand basic interactions in a fantasy universe because it's easier for us to imagine.

Yep. I always viewed it as fire is an element, not a chemical reaction, etc.

 

[Ovinomancer]

The 5e PHB backs up my position and then goes several steps further. It's time to admit that you were wrong, learn from your mistakes, and move on.

No, the PHB hints that magic is pervasive, not that everything is magical. That's a neat setting idea though, sounds like something I did in a 4e campaign -- people used minor rituals for mundane tasks, eg swweping the floor.

And you accuse me of being dismissive and curt?

Well, you did do the original /mic drop, yes? Or are you implying my comment wasn't i response to yours? And, as I said to you when you questioned ne via message, I've never denied I can occasionally be caustic. I don't, however, become incensed when others point it out.

This would get us into a debate of analogies and semantics. So again for example, the humanoid soul in D&D is magical. It is part of the humanoid person. Is the humanoid person magical? I would say "yes."

Sorry, you've begged the question. Where does it say the humanoid soul is magical?

 

[TwoSix]

I wouldn't even go this far. I think that most of the physical events/interactions in a fantasy game happen at a sufficiently high level of abstraction and granularity that common sense tropes are enough to sort them out.

But do carts come to a halt because of friction, or because Newton's first law doesn't hold, or because the air impedes the motion of the earth?

The D&D rules certainly don't answer this question. I don't know of any FRPG that does.

Sorry, I tend to think of "common sense" and "Newtonian mechanics" as pretty much synonymous.