a discussion on Craft versus Profession

[GlassJaw]

I've always found it little difficult and non-intuitive to try to decide if something should be a Craft or Profession skill.

Now the way I understand Profession, it's the equivalent of running a business or a service. It's also based on Wisdom, which IMO means you use common sense to make good decisions on running said business. Craft, on the other hand, is Intelligence-based which I interpret to mean that a Craft skill requires knowledge of specific formulas or techniques to produce something.

For example, let's consider herbalism. It's usually listed as a Profession skill. I think it should be a Craft skill. Herbalism entails combining various ingredients to produce something new. What does that have to do with a running a business? The act of selling those creations and running a successful business could be Profession (apothecary) I guess.

Another example is agriculture or farming. Craft or Profession? Knowledge of soil quality, crop rotation, weather/temperature effects on different crops, etc could all be considered Intelligence-based. The actual act of farming, however, could be argued that it requires instinct and intuition, which might be Wisdom (Profession). You could even go one step further and say that you could also have a Knowledge (agriculture) skill although it may be simpler to use Knowledge (nature).

The reason I've been thinking about this is that I've been working on a low-magic campaign where Craft and Profession skills are much more important for survival. There are also very few actual "businesses" so I'm trying to determine how the Profession skill fits in.

I've put together a basic list of some of the common Craft and Profession skills for my campaign setting:

Craft: bowmaker, furrier, herbalism?, leatherworker, metalsmith, ropemaker, stonecraft, tailor, trapmaking, weaponsmith, woodwork

Profession: brewer, cook, farmer, herder, merchant, miner, scribe

 

[Tumbler]

Why not just make all of the skills the same and let the character decide which mental attribute applies. For some profession skills, charisma would seem to have a lot to do with how successful you are.

 

[GlassJaw]

Negative. I don't want to leave it that open. What does Charisma have to do with making a sword or something? Cha might help certain professions but it shouldn't be the basis for knowing the skills of a certain profession or craft.

 

[Rodrigo Istalindir]

I look at the Knowledge/Craft/Profession skills like this:

If I want to make a living at selling arms and armor, I might have:

Knowledge (Metallurgy) -- so I know about alloys, how to recognize good metal from bad, etc. (5 Ranks grants a +2 synergy bonus to Craft skills using metal)
Craft (Armors, Weapons, Blacksmith) - representing my skill at forming the metal into the right shape and with the right properties
Craft (Leatherworking or Tanning or somesuch) -- to make the ties and clasps and things that hold it all together
Profession (Smith) -- representing my professional contacts, my business acumen (synergy bonuses to appraise, bluff and sense motive when haggling to sell my stuff or buying the rare metals I need to make that masterwork sword)

Similarly, if I wanted to be a captain in the city guard, I might take:

Knowledge (Waterdeep) -- so I know who the important people are, whose toes I can and can't step on, etc
Knowledge (Streetwise) -- making contacts, knowing which stores are fronts for the Thieves Guild, etc.
Profession (City Guard) -- 5+ ranks giving synergy bonuses to Gather Information, Sense Motive, and Intimidate when using those skills in the course of my job.

 

[Remathilis]

I'll address a specfic, then the broader question.

Herbalism, as defined by D&D, appears to be the ability to detect and use various herbs for medical reasons. Someone with Pro: herbalism wouldn't necessarily know how to make rare concoctions with them (that is craft Alchemy under D&D) or be able to use them to cure a dying patient (thats heal). They would, however, be able to know that raspberry leaves help with childbirth and could sell you some fresh ones she found near the forest.

Hence, by D&D standards the herbalist isn't making anything, she's selling you the raw ingredients or simple mixtures that you would need to make things (craft alchemy) or apply (heal) to victims.

Profession, as D&D describes, appears to be knowledge of a service field. A service can make stuff, but in general its his expertise in the field he's in that makes him money. In an era before industrialized labor, craft artisans would be more concerned with their product than how to sell it (prices set by guild after all.) Rarely did professions have have guilds monitoring them, so price was set by market.

So what IS a profession and what IS a craft? Lets give an example...

A major pharmesuitcal company makes a drug to cure something. The use craft (medicine) to make hundreds of this drug.

Your doctor (heal) diagnoses you with something and gives you a prescription.

You go to the pharmacist. He compares the medicines effects to your current list of meds, possible allergies, and medical history to determine safety and proper dosage. He fills your perscription with profession (pharmacist)

So a profession could be something like Bartender (he is responsible for making drinks, but his money comes mostly from service and tips, not from the sale of the alocohol itself), Teacher (the money comes from the instruction, not the knowledge gained), or Scribe (you are selling your service as a writer, not the finished manuscript.)

It IS possible to make money without profession skills; most soliders get payed a comission for doing thier job (and the rate of pay doesn't flux like a profession does) bards get paid by the performance, untrained labor makes 2sp/month, and a craftsman can use craft like a profession (to simulate small jobs like fixing armor, making spoons, or repairing a wagon wheel.)

All in all, profession is usually the selling of your service and experise in a subject, while a craft sells the hard item. If you care more about selling the sword than making it, consider profession (merchant) instead of craft (weaponsmith).

 

[Sejs]

To put it simply: Craft makes, Profession does. For the most part, a Craft skill produces a good whereas a Profession skill renders a service.

Craft (Tanner), Craft (Tailor), Craft (Carpenter), Craft (Potter), Craft (Blacksmith), Craft (Shipwright). Skills that make leather goods, cloth goods, worked wood items, pottery, metal goods, and boats respectivly. Of note would be the Shipwright, who works in various materials, but all toward the production of a single item. And while a Shipwright would know how to make a sail (cloth), he wouldn't necessarily know how to sew a ballgown (also cloth). One of the biggest helps I've found in determining if something should be a Craft skill is to think for a moment and ask myself "Could the use of this skill produce a Masterwork version of whatever it does?". Masterwork clothing? Sure. Masterwork wine? You bet. Masterwork ship? Definitly. Masterwork farming? Nope. Masterwork innkeeping? Uh, no. Masterwork soldiering? Again, negative.


By comparison, Profession skills are the skills that arn't focused solely on the end-stage production of an item. If there wasn't a Heal skill, then Doctor would be a Profession skill for example. Profession (Farmer), Profession (Innkeeper), Profession (Soldier), Profession (Courtesan), Profession (Clerk), Profession (Apothecary). Skills that focus on working the land to cultivate natural materials in a particular fashion, running a restraunt/pub/hostel business, funtioning as a member of an organized military and the duties therein, functioning as a professional 'companion' in high-class circles, working as a member of a bureaucracy and its incumbent duties, and functioning as a medival pharmacist, respectivly. Of note, the Apothecary - the Apothecary doesn't make medicines, instead it's his job to know what things work to treat a particular ailment. Toothache? Make a tea from this willow bark. Skin rash? Make a poultice of this corkbulb root and oats and apply it to the affected area.

 

[der_kluge]

These are the Craft() skills I used from my last campaign:

Armorsmithing
Bowyer
Brewing
Cobbling
Coopersmith
Fletching
Leatherworking
Locksmith
Pottery
Tailoring
Tanning
Trapmaking
Weaponsmithing
Weaving
Woodworking

These are my knowledg() skills:
Arcana
Architecture and Engineering
Dungeoneering
Geography
History
Local
Nature
Nobility and Royalty
Religion
The Planes
Monsters() (by category)

These are my professions():

Baker
Bartender
Beautician
Bee-Keeper
Bookbinder
Butcher
Carpenter
Cartographer
Chef
Farmer
Fisherman
Herbalist
Lapidary (cuts gems)
Lumberjack
Mason
Merchant
Miller
Miner
Navigator
Scribe
Seaman
Tanner

I could see Herbalist being either a profession or a knowledge skill. In reality, it should probably be a Knowledge() skill. Unless one rules that it really has more to do with insight, and learned wisdom versus hard study.

I also created a new skill called Artist, which is dex-based, and allows PCs to create works of art or sculptures. Such things do not conform to the Craft() rules (which are broken, anyway).

 

[GlassJaw]

Great stuff everyone! Awesome example Remathilis. The lists really help too. It's given me a lot of material for my campaign.

I could see Herbalist being either a profession or a knowledge skill

Seems like herbalism is the toughest to classify. My gut feeling is to make 3 skills: Craft (herbalism), Knowledge (nature), and Profession (apothecary or herbalist). I see herbalism as a non-magical version of alchemy. I don't see why you couldn't have Craft (alchemy) and Profession (alchemist) so why not with herbalism too?

I also created a new skill called Artist, which is dex-based, and allows PCs to create works of art or sculptures

I highly recommend against using Dex for artistry of any kind. Manual dexterity has very little to do with painting, sculpting, playing an instrument, etc and even if it does, it pales in comparison to actual skill and practice.

In D&D terms, it would also make someone who can't walk a terrible artist, when in reality it would have no effect whatsoever. I can see making some artistry skills Wis or Int-based (painting, composing) whereas the performing arts (singing, public speaking, etc) Cha-based.

You could have a skill for actual musicianship (Wis or Int) and another for performing (Cha) if you really wanted to get specific.

 

[Deadguy]

I must say, this sort of discussion is exactly why I ditched Craft and Profession from D&D when I created my first 3e campaign, and lumped them together under the heading Artisan. It's only the fact that Craft and Profession play a small part in typical 3e campaigns that prevents the mess that the current system is in from being more apparent, and I really hoped that 3.5 would address this.

Anyway, Artisan skills use whichever is better of Int or Wis, representing the user's approach to his work. The only refinement I made was to add Artisan (business), which is the skill used to actually operate a business as opposed to performing the duties or mkaing the goods. That allowed me to distinguish between talented journeymen and a rounded master, who would be at least as good a businessman as he is at pursuing his craft.

 

[Boojum]

I had the same problem when I wanted to make a character that was always trying to gather informations to improve drinks. She didn't care about selling them too much (she was affiliated with a popular restaurant and bakery that bought everything she could make), and just wanted to improve the end product as much as possible. Because of that, I just fudged it and took Craft (Alcohol) rather than Profession (Brewer) because it made more sense for the character. I definitely agree that the craft/profession system is pretty clumsy and should be reexamined.