a discussion on Craft versus Profession

[Remathilis]

Heres a question...

What can a warrior with profession (solider) do that a fighter can't? What justifies the 4 ranks?

 

[Rodrigo Istalindir]

Heres a question...

What can a warrior with profession (solider) do that a fighter can't? What justifies the 4 ranks?

Follow orders?

Offhand, I'd say profession (soldier) would let you give you:

* Some rudimentary tactical skills,
* the ability to recognize rank insignia for your own side as well as your common opponents
* maybe know by sight the most famous banners carried by your opponent's legions
* some basic logistics skills

 

[jmucchiello]

names

As clarification, I like to differentiate Craft and Profession such that Craft skills create non-perishable things. That's why you use Profession (Farmer) or Profession (Brewer). With 3.5 I do not add knowledge skills. I know knowledge (warfare) is popular, but I through that into K (Architecture and Engineering) because that's what catapult warfare is all about.

Profession (soldier) gets you paid a fair wage as part of an armed force. Fighter encompasses far more than the professional fighter. A barroom brawler is probably total undisciplined and could not make a cp working in a structured armed force. Doesn't mean he can't fight like the devil.

Boojim: Just because you have Profession (Brewer), doesn't mean you ever have to make money doing it. Don't let the name of the skill bog you down. What the heck does "Mobility" have to do with avoiding Attacks of Opportunity? Or why doesn't Lightning Reflexes also help you pick someone's pockets? Names are just there so we have some why to refer to it.

 

[Remathilis]

Follow orders?

Offhand, I'd say profession (soldier) would let you give you:

* Some rudimentary tactical skills,
* the ability to recognize rank insignia for your own side as well as your common opponents
* maybe know by sight the most famous banners carried by your opponent's legions
* some basic logistics skills

Ok... not to deride the topic further (and I'll gladly take this to a new thread if that becomes the case) but profession (as per the PH) basically lets you make money. A common foot solider is usually paid 5 cp/month. Would the warrior with prof (solider) gain more money from his ranks? Is it because he's a better solider?

What you described is an excellent canidate for know: war, but doesn't seem to make his solidering "worth more" than a first level fighter with no ranks in P:Solider.

Maybe I'm wrong though...

 

[Rodrigo Istalindir]

Maybe I'm wrong though...

There isn't any 'wrong' with these, since so much is left to interpretation.

I think, given the scarcity of skill points (especially to fighters), that if you want to see Profession be useful for anything at all, you've got to take profession to mean more than 'something I get 5cp a month for spending a skill point on.' I'm a big fan of letting Profession(X) granting synergy and circumstance bonuses, since that gives them an 'in game' benefit.

To take your example, I think Knowledge (Tactics) represents the study of tactics similar to what one would get at the War College or West Point. Starting with stuff like 'Don't invade Russia in the winter' to the use of screening forces, what to do when you have cavalry and they have archers, etc.

Profession (Soldier) would be the practical, real-world accumulation and expression of several knowledge skills, depending on how detailed you wanted to get (Tactics, Strategy, Logistics, Seige Warfare, whatever), plus standard skills (Spot, Listen, whatever).

Someone with 5 Ranks in K(Tactics) would know, if you thought to ask, the about Velhon's fondness for engaging head on but holding horse archers in reserve. Someone with 5 Ranks in K(Tactics) and 5 ranks in P(Soldier) would recognize that they were employing that tactic in this battle when he noticed the Velhon front line troops close ranks and go into a more defensive mode (because they were expecting the horse archers to appear and unleash a withering barrage into the enemy's flanks.)

In this case, I might let the 5 ranks of P(Soldier) and K(Tactics) give the observer a +4 circumstance bonus to Sense Motive (because he recognizes the tell-tale signs), and if that succeeded, to subsequent spot checks for the approaching horse archers (because he knows they are coming).

 

[Victim]

I think the idea is that, in many cases, the ability to do something is largely independent of the ability to make money from it. The warrior with profession gets paid to be a soldier. The fighter might not get hired, doesn't get the good jobs/promotions, etc. He can probably make more money by directly killings though.

You might also say that the profession includes stuff like marching in formation, military jargon, etc.

 

[Esteban]

I must say, this sort of discussion is exactly why I ditched Craft and Profession from D&D when I created my first 3e campaign, and lumped them together under the heading Artisan. It's only the fact that Craft and Profession play a small part in typical 3e campaigns that prevents the mess that the current system is in from being more apparent, and I really hoped that 3.5 would address this.

Anyway, Artisan skills use whichever is better of Int or Wis, representing the user's approach to his work. The only refinement I made was to add Artisan (business), which is the skill used to actually operate a business as opposed to performing the duties or mkaing the goods. That allowed me to distinguish between talented journeymen and a rounded master, who would be at least as good a businessman as he is at pursuing his craft.

Hey...those rules are pretty good. I'll be using 'em in my next campaign.

Thanks!

-Steve

 

[Esteban]

Oops. Sorry for the double post!

 

[Wombat]

I have a two part answer to this question.

First up, I have combined Craft & Profession into a single skill (Craft/Profession).

After that, taking a note from White Wolf, I have removed the "Base Characteristic" from every skill. Now you have your rank in your skill plus the modifier based on the characteristic best suited to the way you are using the skill at that given moment. Thus Intimidate could be modified by Int, Str, or Cha, depending on how you are going about it. Equally skills could be based on almost any characteristic, depending on what is being made, investigated, invested in, and the like.

Simple solution that works well with my group.

 

[Mark]

Craft skills create non-perishable things.

profession (as per the PH) basically lets you make money.

That sums it up fine for me.