[A&E Guide] Blindfold of True Darkness

[LokiDR]

You sure about the dispel?

An extra-dimentional space protects the coins quite nicely, and you can only drop area dispells on me due to targeting.

True, but a single dispel would wipe them out.

see above

...in which case the ring of invisibility is far superior, which was what I was pointing out in the first place. The blindfold is greater for combat. The ring is greater for out of combat. Simply because a magic item is great out of combat does not mean its balance or usefulness should be ignored.

I was never negating out-of-combat use. You just keep calling all my uses "in combat". I don't consider a trap, a magical disguise, a hidden passage, or a sneaking thief combat per se. Each could turn into combat, but so could your use of the ring.

They would benefit the most, I agree. Especially spellcasting rogues with ray spells.

What is a non-sneak based class going to do with it, beside run from combat? I think the anti-illusion properties of blindsight are more generally useful. Heck, just buy one and give it to whomever is on guard duty at night.

One successful dispel is all it takes. The coin is in your possession, thus the coin is you, thus a targeted dispel could potentially take down every effect on you.

Except the ones in an extra-dimentional space, which are numerous and cheap.

Generally, a balanced party will have a spellcaster of some type (wizard, sorcerer, or cleric).

Do the PCs always face a balanced party?

...and unless you're hasted, that would consume your entire round (if you're movement rate is 30 or less). That's a lot of precious time consumed.

Hey, I didn't say it was perfect. But there are many creatures that see through invis as well, including characters with the Blindfold of True Darkness

Or I can use any other means to negate it, such as fly (get above it), true seeing (pierce it), wind wall (disperse a cloud of whatever or mist), dimension door (get around it), etc. We can discuss tactics all day, but I'm not sure how effecient that would be, unless that's what this topic has come down to to determine how powerful the item is (which is quite possible).

I don't know if we are just down to discussing tatics. But note that all the tatics you are talking about work just as well against invisibility. Most parties would carry anti-invis equipment rather than anti-darkness and anti-fog.

I don't need days. I just need a few rounds, maybe a couple of minutes, to negate your darkness.

And after I win the combat, I can use the same coin again later

Well, it all comes down to combat or no combat. I just think that a ring of invisibility, as useful as it is outside of combat, is no less useful in comparison to a blindfold while in combat. Its just a matter of circumstances and the tools you utilize to adapt/handle those circumstances.

Hidden passages, magical disguises, hidden treasure, sneaking characters of any sort (outside of combat) and more depending on how you interpret "[creatures with blindsight] normally do not need to make spot or listen checks...."

 

[LokiDR]

I believe it 's in the FAQ.

As attended items, they are considered part of you, and any spells on them are treated as spells that are on you.

Ok, that is good to know. I should have looked that up long ago.

 

[LokiDR]

Except that the daylight coin lets me see you. This gets twisted, doesn't it?

You know, it occures to me, K, that every counter example you give to my abuse of this item is based on having a cleric/mage with the proper spells at hand. I can build a rogue who wears the 9k blindfold, carries the 2k Handy Haversack, and paid for 10 deeper darkness coins from a 15th level caster at cost of 4500. 15,500 and I have a near improved-invis for 15 days.

Even if we bump the blindfold to 20k (like that ring you are fond of) I still get 36,500 for the same trick. Unless you have blindsight or tremorsense, I get a huge advange. Not many creatures have those abilities, unless they have the blindfold themselves.

My point: sure you can counter it, but only at a large cost of spells. You said you didn't agree with the pricing for the ability without limits. What you price it at?

 

[kreynolds]

An extra-dimentional space protects the coins quite nicely, and you can only drop area dispells on me due to targeting.

Not true. My daylight will cancel out your darkness, thus I can see you, thus I can target you, thus with a successful dispel, you can't get into your haversack.

see above

See above.

I was never negating out-of-combat use.

I know. I was just pointing it out before you did so.

You just keep calling all my uses "in combat".

A rogue sneaking up on you generally leads to an action that must be resolved in rounds, i.e. combat.

I don't consider a trap, a magical disguise, a hidden passage, or a sneaking thief combat per se.

Except for the sneaking rogue in most situations, I agree. Like I said, I simply think that the ring has more use out of combat than a blindfold does out of combat.

Each could turn into combat, but so could your use of the ring.

Right, but I wasn't disputing that.

What is a non-sneak based class going to do with it, beside run from combat?

Sneak around?

I think the anti-illusion properties of blindsight are more generally useful.

It depends upon what you're doing, and your environment as well. But, I'd have to disagree that its generally more useful. Just a difference of opinion.

Heck, just buy one and give it to whomever is on guard duty at night.

Not a bad idea, actually. Anyone seeing the person wearing the blindfold will think they're blind or something. I like.

However, you could also do the same thing with the ring. Just have them put it on and turn it on. The only people seen in the camp will be sleeping, but the alert dude on guard will be awake.

Except the ones in an extra-dimentional space...

Unless the extra-dimensional space gets suppressed.

...which are numerous and cheap.

It doesn't matter how numerous they are. If they're on you, it only takes one dispel. If they're in the extra-dimensional space, it only takes one dispel.

Do the PCs always face a balanced party?

No, but the PCs generally represent a balanced party. Sometimes what the PCs face can be weaker or tougher. Tactics work both ways.

Hey, I didn't say it was perfect.

Oh, I know, and I'm not accusing you of it either. I was just countering.

But there are many creatures that see through invis as well, including characters with the Blindfold of True Darkness

Very true. But a creature with blindsight going against a creature with blindsight...well, they cancel each other out anyway, so it might as well just be two humans that aren't trying to hide.

I don't know if we are just down to discussing tatics.

Starting to look that way, but there's a little bit o' rules in the mix.

But note that all the tatics you are talking about work just as well against invisibility.

Very true. I didn't say it was perfect.

Most parties would carry anti-invis equipment rather than anti-darkness and anti-fog.

I'm not so sure about that. A seasoned veteran would carry anti-darkness or anti-fog equipment, and they will most assuredly also carry anti-invis equipment as well. Some effect anti-invis equipment; ink, flower, oil, sand, dust, etc. That's some cheap stuff.

And after I win the combat, I can use the same coin again later

Or, after I win, I can take your haversack full of coins, after its no longer suppressed, of course.

 

[kreynolds]

You know, it occures to me, K, that every counter example you give to my abuse of this item is based on having a cleric/mage with the proper spells at hand.

Or having a coin with permanent daylight on it (which would require DM approval, but that's fine), or an anti-magic rock. Rare item vs. rare item.

My point: sure you can counter it, but only at a large cost of spells.

If you're a spellcaster (you're making darkness coins), or if you have a spellcaster in the party (he's making darkness coins), why is it out of the question to assume that you might be going up against another spellcaster?

But most importantly, if you're using a bunch of magic items, why can't I?

You said you didn't agree with the pricing for the ability without limits.

Yup. Drop it to vibration in the ground only, or sound, and I'm cool with the price.

What you price it at?

With all the senses? I don't know. I haven't thought about it. After Forrester's post, my gut instinct was to weaken it, as opposed to raising its price.

 

[LokiDR]

Not true. My daylight will cancel out your darkness, thus I can see you, thus I can target you, thus with a successful dispel, you can't get into your haversack.

You get out a coin and cast daylight. I move back, out of your sight, or deal with losing my huge advantage. If I do move back, you aren't going to get me into the daylight and still be able to dispel me, unless you count haste. If you are hasted, I still get my advange for part of my round.

I know. I was just pointing it out before you did so.

You admit you aren't even counter my arguement.

A rogue sneaking up on you generally leads to an action that must be resolved in rounds, i.e. combat.

So does most any case of you sneaking with ring of invis.

Except for the sneaking rogue in most situations, I agree. Like I said, I simply think that the ring has more use out of combat than a blindfold does out of combat.

But you just said sneaking IS combat. Traps and disguises are not.

Right, but I wasn't disputing that.

Actually, by your logic it is combat. So the only use for ring of invis is combat. Since you said the blindfold is better in combat, that means I win, right

Sneak around?

Spot DC 20. Then out comes the see invis. Doesn't seem very effective to me.

It depends upon what you're doing, and your environment as well. But, I'd have to disagree that its generally more useful. Just a difference of opinion.

Not a bad idea, actually. Anyone seeing the person wearing the blindfold will think they're blind or something. I like.

However, you could also do the same thing with the ring. Just have them put it on and turn it on. The only people seen in the camp will be sleeping, but the alert dude on guard will be awake.

The blindfold negates the whole darkness at night problem. Most of the standard races still have that problem, remember.

Unless the extra-dimensional space gets suppressed.

So targeted dispell disables magical items as well?! Wow, dispell keeps getting better the more I read these formems.

It doesn't matter how numerous they are. If they're on you, it only takes one dispel. If they're in the extra-dimensional space, it only takes one dispel.

I don't think so, unless you referencing the above comment. I am not finding anything in the FAQ.

No, but the PCs generally represent a balanced party. Sometimes what the PCs face can be weaker or tougher. Tactics work both ways.

True, but doesn't mean a party will break one more than the other.

Very true. But a creature with blindsight going against a creature with blindsight...well, they cancel each other out anyway, so it might as well just be two humans that aren't trying to hide.

Two invisible creatures that can't see each other is also an amusing idea. How often will your oppent have blindsight?

I'm not so sure about that. A seasoned veteran would carry anti-darkness or anti-fog equipment, and they will most assuredly also carry anti-invis equipment as well. Some effect anti-invis equipment; ink, flower, oil, sand, dust, etc. That's some cheap stuff.

If you have a good idea where they are. Daylight runs out long before deeper darkness.

Or, after I win, I can take your haversack full of coins, after its no longer suppressed, of course.

But I won, just like I said up there

Honestly, if I can make an arguement that the blindfold is at least as useful as ring of invis, don't you think the price is quite off?

 

[LokiDR]

Or having a coin with permanent daylight on it (which would require DM approval, but that's fine), or an anti-magic rock. Rare item vs. rare item.

Um, did you read my example? A copper coin with a third level spell cast on it can hardly be called a rare item.

If you're a spellcaster (you're making darkness coins), or if you have a spellcaster in the party (he's making darkness coins), why is it out of the question to assume that you might be going up against another spellcaster?

Um, did you read my example? I bought them, or rather the spells being cast, to make this tatic work for 15 days. I can be far away from the caster but you must be a caster.

But most importantly, if you're using a bunch of magic items, why can't I?

Cost is the issue, not number. Post an example for under that amount of money to counter it.

Yup. Drop it to vibration in the ground only, or sound, and I'm cool with the price.

Ground vibration would be tremorsense, not blindsight. Even if it was sound based, you only get a chance to stop me with silence, again being a spell-caster.

With all the senses? I don't know. I haven't thought about it. After Forrester's post, my gut instinct was to weaken it, as opposed to raising its price.

Blindsight is still blindsight.

 

[magnas_veritas]

Yup. Drop it to vibration in the ground only, or sound, and I'm cool with the price.

Just as an aside...

I'd really, really like blindsight better defined. Sometimes it's sound-based, other times it's random non-sonic vibrations, and then other times it's just a sphere of awareness. I hate that.

Here we have this uber-sense that cannot, under any circumstances, be defeated. Vision and hearing? Skill use, preparation, and thinking can defeat that. Smell? A bit harder, but there are items for that in MoF and A&EG, both magical and non...and, again, preparation can minimize or outright defeat it with minimal expense. Then there's tremorsense, which is really hard to get past right up until you figure out that by flying, you can negate it completely; flying is comparatively easy, after all.

Then, we have blindsight. I can detect anything at all within a certain radius with no chance of failure. Sure, outside of that radius I can't detect them with that sense, but either I keep to closed spaces where I don't have to worry about that, or I fall back on my backup senses. Currently, there are no existing items to defeat blindsight; one can use the Ring of the Darkhidden (MoF, wearer is invisible to darkvision only, 6700 gp) as a guide, but this defeats an entire multi-faceted sense, not just an enhancement to vision.

Sorry, bit of a low-key rant there. Thoughts on defeating or fixing Blindsight...not including just moving outside its range?

Brad

 

[kreynolds]

You admit you aren't even counter my arguement.

I didn't say it was a counter.

So does most any case of you sneaking with ring of invis.

True, but you're not actually in combat. There's a difference. With a single attack, the ring deactivates, thus its far more useful outside of combat.

But you just said sneaking IS combat.

No. I said its resolved in rounds, i.e. combat. The point with the ring is to stay out of combat, as you only get one good round out of it, and if you do indeed stay out of combat, its a heck of a lot more useful.

Traps and disguises are not.

True, but its worth pointing out that many traps don't care if you have blindsight or are invisible, so traps are irrelevant.

Actually, by your logic it is combat.

Nope.

Since you said the blindfold is better in combat, that means I win, right

No. See previous answers.

Spot DC 20. Then out comes the see invis.

Wait a second. Now we have a magic item with see invisibility in the mix. Can I bring in some more magic items? I'm just kidding. It struck me as funny because this discussion is rapidly descending into chaos.

Doesn't seem very effective to me.

Nothing is effective if I throw an antimagic stone at you.

The blindfold negates the whole darkness at night problem.

To a severely limited range, yes. The ring doesn't interfere with that. With the ring, you could be standing right next to your campfire and the light will actually help you.

Most of the standard races still have that problem, remember.

Five out of the seven core races have either low-light or darkvision. "Most" doesn't apply.

So targeted dispell disables magical items as well?!

It's been debated that to suppress your HHH, one would need to target either the haversack itself or you. Either way, yes.

Wow, dispell keeps getting better the more I read these formems.

Happens a lot.

I don't think so, unless you referencing the above comment. I am not finding anything in the FAQ.

It was already mentioned by Hypersmurf.

True, but doesn't mean a party will break one more than the other.

It doesn't matter. In a game of random encounters, one where you can't predict what you'll run into next, random tactics apply.

Two invisible creatures that can't see each other is also an amusing idea.

I've seen it happen. It's quite funny...and quite boring.

How often will your oppent have blindsight?

Is he a spellcaster with access to MaoF? A lot.

If you have a good idea where they are.

If all you have is a bag of flower, then by all means, use it. But, like you said, all it takes is a Spot DC 20, then comes see invisibility.

Daylight runs out long before deeper darkness.

Again, all I need is a few rounds or a couple of minutes, at the most. If the coin has a permanent daylight on it, then the duration of darkness is irrelevant.

But I won, just like I said up there

I don't see how.

Honestly, if I can make an arguement that the blindfold is at least as useful as ring of invis, don't you think the price is quite off?

I already admitted that the price was off, early in the thread, in fact. However, I didn't suggest raising the price. I suggested toning down the effectiveness of the item by reducing the sense involved in the blindsight bestowed upon the wearer.

 

[kreynolds]

Um, did you read my example?

Yes.

A copper coin with a third level spell cast on it can hardly be called a rare item.

I wasn't referring to the coin. I was referring to the blindfold.

Um, did you read my example?

Yes.

I bought them, or rather the spells being cast, to make this tatic work for 15 days. I can be far away from the caster but you must be a caster.

Then I'm a caster. What's the problem with that? If I'm not the caster, and I'm in a balanced party, then I'll have one anyway.

Cost is the issue, not number.

I already agreed, long ago, that the cost was off. See previous post.

Post an example for under that amount of money to counter it.

Why?

Ground vibration would be tremorsense, not blindsight.

Good point. Make it standard vibration then, as the spell from MaoF.

Even if it was sound based, you only get a chance to stop me with silence, again being a spell-caster.

So I'm can't use a spellcaster at all? How about a coin with silence on it then?

Blindsight is still blindsight.

I don't get your meaning. Blindsight is not merely blindsight. Check the monster manual. The ability is not always the same. Not by a long shot.