A few questions about monks and grappling

Yig

First Post
Hi,

I'm about to play a monk in an upcoming campaign (starting this Sunday) and I need to check a few details before we start the game.

My character is a 1st level half-orc monk and I took Improved Grapple as my bonus monk feat.

My questions:

1- Can I use flurry to initate a grapple with my first attack and then use the second attack to damage my opponent ?

2- While grappled with an opponent can I use flurry to pin (first attack) and damage my opponent (second attack) ?

3- Can I use flurry to attempt trip and disarm ?

I'm considering taking Earth Embrace as my first level feat if the answer to #2 is yes. If it's no, I need a suggestion ;)

Thanks !
 

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There is debate about this.

But Flurry only permits attacks with unarmed strikes and special monk weapons.

Weapon Focus: Grapple and Weapon Focus: Unarmed Strike are two distinct feats, so we can see that grappling is not an unarmed strike (it's an unarmed attack, but not an unarmed strike). It's also not on the list of special monk weapons.

Therefore the answer to 1 and 2 is no.

While you're grappling, you can attack with a light weapon (at -4), which can include unarmed strike... so you can Flurry with this option. But initiating a grapple, damaging an opponent with a grapple check, and pinning are all invalid options in a flurry.

Disarm - absolutely. A Disarm is performed with a weapon, so as long as you're using unarmed strike or a special monk weapon to Disarm, you're fine.

Trip - with a kama. A Trip can be made with a special Trip weapon; if you are not using a special Trip weapon, it is an unarmed melee touch attack.

Unarmed strike is not a special Trip weapon, so if you are using Unarmed Strikes, you Trip as an unarmed melee touch attack (not with an unarmed strike), and thus cannot use this option as part of a Flurry. If you are using a kama, however, this is both a special Trip weapon and a special monk weapon, so you can Trip with a kama as part of a Flurry.

As noted above, this interpretation is debated :)

-Hyp.
 

yo

heya, i play a monk who grapples too.. here's some suggestions and opinions with references to rules that i remember.

From the 3.5 SRD:

Flurry of Blows (Ex): When unarmored, a monk may strike with a flurry of blows at the expense of accuracy. When doing so, she may make one extra attack in a round at her highest base attack bonus, but this attack takes a –2 penalty, as does each other attack made that round. The resulting modified base attack bonuses are shown in the Flurry of Blows Attack Bonus column on Table: The Monk. This penalty applies for 1 round, so it also affects attacks of opportunity the monk might make before her next action. When a monk reaches 5th level, the penalty lessens to –1, and at 9th level it disappears. A monk must use a full attack action to strike with a flurry of blows.
When using flurry of blows, a monk may attack only with unarmed strikes or with special monk weapons (kama, nunchaku, quarterstaff, sai, shuriken, and siangham). She may attack with unarmed strikes and special monk weapons interchangeably as desired. When using weapons as part of a flurry of blows, a monk applies her Strength bonus (not Str bonus x 1-1/2 or x1/2) to her damage rolls for all successful attacks, whether she wields a weapon in one or both hands. The monk can’t use any weapon other than a special monk weapon as part of a flurry of blows.
In the case of the quarterstaff, each end counts as a separate weapon for the purpose of using the flurry of blows ability. Even though the quarterstaff requires two hands to use, a monk may still intersperse unarmed strikes with quarterstaff strikes, assuming that she has enough attacks in her flurry of blows routine to do so.
When a monk reaches 11th level, her flurry of blows ability improves. In addition to the standard single extra attack she gets from flurry of blows, she gets a second extra attack at her full base attack bonus.

Also from the 3.5 SRD:

Starting a Grapple
To start a grapple, you need to grab and hold your target. Starting a grapple requires a successful melee attack roll. If you get multiple attacks, you can attempt to start a grapple multiple times (at successively lower base attack bonuses).
Step 1: Attack of Opportunity. You provoke an attack of opportunity from the target you are trying to grapple. If the attack of opportunity deals damage, the grapple attempt fails. (Certain monsters do not provoke attacks of opportunity when they attempt to grapple, nor do characters with the Improved Grapple feat.) If the attack of opportunity misses or fails to deal damage, proceed to Step 2.
Step 2: Grab. You make a melee touch attack to grab the target. If you fail to hit the target, the grapple attempt fails. If you succeed, proceed to Step 3.
Step 3: Hold. Make an opposed grapple check as a free action.
If you succeed, you and your target are now grappling, and you deal damage to the target as if with an unarmed strike.
If you lose, you fail to start the grapple. You automatically lose an attempt to hold if the target is two or more size categories larger than you are.
In case of a tie, the combatant with the higher grapple check modifier wins. If this is a tie, roll again to break the tie.
Step 4: Maintain Grapple. To maintain the grapple for later rounds, you must move into the target’s space. (This movement is free and doesn’t count as part of your movement in the round.)
Moving, as normal, provokes attacks of opportunity from threatening opponents, but not from your target.
If you can’t move into your target’s space, you can’t maintain the grapple and must immediately let go of the target. To grapple again, you must begin at Step 1.

So you can indeed initiate a flurry of blows with unarmed strikes, grab your opponent and if you succeed on the grapple check, damage him with your first attack, and you still have one more grapple check that you could use to do unarmed damage, attack with a light weapon, pin, etc. You can't go to "pin" with your first grapple - you only get the choice to inflict unarmed damage when you succeed in your first grapple check. You can't exactly disarm or trip your foe with a grapple, but keep in mind that when you're grappling, both parties in the grapple don't have any threatened areas - so you can disarm your opponent without fear of an AoO. In fact, if you want to disarm an opponent of something very well-secured (like a ring, a magical gauntlet, or something similar), you need to pin him first.

from the 3.5 SRD:

Grabbing Items
You can use a disarm action to snatch an item worn by the target. If you want to have the item in your hand, the disarm must be made as an unarmed attack.
If the item is poorly secured or otherwise easy to snatch or cut away the attacker gets a +4 bonus. Unlike on a normal disarm attempt, failing the attempt doesn’t allow the defender to attempt to disarm you. This otherwise functions identically to a disarm attempt, as noted above.
You can’t snatch an item that is well secured unless you have pinned the wearer (see Grapple). Even then, the defender gains a +4 bonus on his roll to resist the attempt.

Hope this helps!

Yours,
shao

P.S. Yig Snake Daddy rocks. :-P
 

xenoflare said:
heya, i play a monk who grapples too.. here's some suggestions and opinions with references to rules that i remember.

From the 3.5 SRD:

Flurry of Blows (Ex): When unarmored, a monk may strike with a flurry of blows at the expense of accuracy. When doing so, she may make one extra attack in a round at her highest base attack bonus, but this attack takes a –2 penalty, as does each other attack made that round. The resulting modified base attack bonuses are shown in the Flurry of Blows Attack Bonus column on Table: The Monk. This penalty applies for 1 round, so it also affects attacks of opportunity the monk might make before her next action. When a monk reaches 5th level, the penalty lessens to –1, and at 9th level it disappears. A monk must use a full attack action to strike with a flurry of blows.
When using flurry of blows, a monk may attack only with unarmed strikes or with special monk weapons (kama, nunchaku, quarterstaff, sai, shuriken, and siangham).
* Snipped for Brevity *

Also from the 3.5 SRD:

Starting a Grapple
To start a grapple, you need to grab and hold your target. Starting a grapple requires a successful melee attack roll. If you get multiple attacks, you can attempt to start a grapple multiple times (at successively lower base attack bonuses).

So you can indeed initiate a flurry of blows with unarmed strikes, grab your opponent and if you succeed on the grapple check, damage him with your first attack, and you still have one more grapple check that you could use to do unarmed damage, attack with a light weapon, pin, etc.
The rule is vague, but my interpretation to "If you get multiple attacks" phrase, it is referring to multiple attacks due to BAB, not other abilities.

While you can argue you can attempt flurry of blows to START a grapple, once you succeeded on the first try, the additional attacks from FoB may no longer apply.

At higher level, combining FoB with grapple will be more helpful. You can use the additonal attacks (at lower penalty) to inflict damage on anyone, including your intended grappling target, then start a grapple with the rest of your primary attacks (due to BAB).
 

Thanks for the answers guys.

It is as I feared :)

Guess I'll wait for level 9 before taking Earth's Embrace then.

Another thing about grappling, if I win initiative and grapple an opponent, when it's the opponent turn he can try to hit or damage me right ?
 

Yig said:
Another thing about grappling, if I win initiative and grapple an opponent, when it's the opponent turn he can try to hit or damage me right ?

Right. He can take any of the actions under "When you are grappling", unless he's pinned. In which case he can take the actions under "When you are pinned".

-Hyp.
 

Thanks again.

It's actually gonna be first time since the coming of 3.0/5 that my group is going to use grappling/trip etc.
 

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