D&D General A glimpse at WoTC's current view of Rule 0

[TwoSix]

Hey guys I still have a post from @pemerton I want to reply to, so let us try not to get this one shutdown (yet).

We're nearing the 2K mark, it's going to happen soon.

 

[Ulorian - Agent of Chaos]

i don't see how pemerton can help that, you may have misread, it's their post anotherGuy wants to respond to.

Doh!

 

[Ulorian - Agent of Chaos]

Doh!

@AnotherGuy Get after it!

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Mod Note:

People! How about a sharp decrease in snark & sniping in this thread, please?

 

[hawkeyefan]

If Odin has no limits, he doesn't need the characters to do fetch quests.

Right, but who's saying Odin has no limits? Not me.

And who's talking about fetch quests? Again... not me.

Your idea was beautiful, I gave you XP for it but like @Crimson Longinus said, Pandora's box is now open. (See below)

That is not the point. If it works for Odin, why can it not work for Freya or Thor or Lolth? This is how players think, this is how I think from a world-building perspective.

Do any other player characters have relationships with Freya, Thor, or Lolth? Is this bound to come up? Will whatever idea the player has line up with things relevant to those deities?

Odin is connected to secret knowledge... it's part of his lore. So is the idea that he sacrificed something to get special knowledge.

So, if a player had a character that had a relationship with Lolth, and then made some kind of plea to her for aid, and it was something that Lolth may have found interesting or worthwhile, or similar to something about her... yeah, I'd try and roll with it. Incorporate what the player is trying into the game instead of saying "no, that doesn't work".

Now, I will say that this requires some amount of discipline on the player's part. But I've not really had that problem since my group and I were in high school. Everyone I've played with for the last 20 years has been able to contribute to play without it being some attempt to cheat or avoid challenge.

And how would you limit it? How would you say no?
I'm curious to see how those with different playstyles would say no.
It has to be something constructive, not Odin doesn't require anything, I cannot think of something creative or only requests about knowledge of something secret work because all this is DM decides

Well, in @Oofta's example, the player was demanding the outcome. So, I would say... "Odin's not just going to give you what you want. Do you really want to see if he can help?" and then if the player wanted to proceed, I'd have Odin (or one of his valkyrie or other servant if necessary, it doesn't really matter) present the offer of assistance with the caveat that it will come with a cost. As I said, I'd push the idea of this cost to the player to see what they had in mind. If they suggested something of minimal value, I'd have Odin (or his servant) scoff at them. "Odin gave an eye... the eye of a god... half the light of the world... what do you have that can measure against that?"

If the player still couldn't come up with something, then I'd try to come up with a suitable offer. Hard to say what would work from the example... the player didn't seem to care about anything in the game... but thinking of my players, I feel confident I could come up with something. It would vary from player to player and character to character.

If the player decided their character would not agree, then I would have Odin (or his servant) dismiss them and tell them not to waste their time again.

Nothing above amounts to the DM just saying "Yes, here's all of it". There is denial of what's being asked at several points.

 

[TwoSix]

Well, in @Oofta's example, the player was demanding the outcome. So, I would say... "Odin's not just going to give you what you want. Do you really want to see if he can help?" and then if the player wanted to proceed, I'd have Odin (or one of his valkyrie or other servant if necessary, it doesn't really matter) present the offer of assistance with the caveat that it will come with a cost. As I said, I'd push the idea of this cost to the player to see what they had in mind. If they suggested something of minimal value, I'd have Odin (or his servant) scoff at them. "Odin gave an eye... the eye of a god... half the light of the world... what do you have that can measure against that?"

If the player still couldn't come up with something, then I'd try to come up with a suitable offer. Hard to say what would work from the example... the player didn't seem to care about anything in the game... but thinking of my players, I feel confident I could come up with something. It would vary from player to player and character to character.

If the player decided their character would not agree, then I would have Odin (or his servant) dismiss them and tell them not to waste their time again.

Nothing above amounts to the DM just saying "Yes, here's all of it". There is denial of what's being asked at several points.

I think an important part of player framing for something like this is stakes for failure.

If a player wants to frame something into a scene that gives a chance for a real power-up, then I think there needs to be a resolution method attached (generally a roll), as well as an actual consequence for failure of the roll.

 

[Aldarc]

Nothing above amounts to the DM just saying "Yes, here's all of it". There is denial of what's being asked at several points.

It's similar to ritual magic in Dungeon World - which is a derivation of a workshop ability in an Apocalypse World playbook - that amounts to the player saying what they want the magical ritual to do. The GM doesn't say, "Yes, here's all of it" nor does the player demand the outcome. The GM establishes the conditions or requirements that the player will need to make the ritual work as well as potential risks:

Ritual​

When you draw on a place of power to create a magical Effect, tell The GM what you’re trying to achieve. Ritual effects are always possible, but The GM will give you one to four of the following conditions:

• It’s going to take days/weeks/months
• First you must ____
• You’ll need help from ____
• It will require a lot of money
• The best you can do is a lesser version, unreliable and limited
• You and your allies will risk danger from ____
• You’ll have to disenchant ____ to do it

 

[Oofta]

I think an important part of player framing for something like this is stakes for failure.

If a player wants to frame something into a scene that gives a chance for a real power-up, then I think there needs to be a resolution method attached (generally a roll), as well as an actual consequence for failure of the roll.

The issue I had included many aspects. The fact that they thought they could just declare that because spells they had tried had not worked, they could get a special dispensation "just because" was one. From a rules perspective this might have fallen under divine intervention, although that's specifically been limited to casting of a spell of 5th level or lower in the 2024 rules.

But do you really think it's a good idea that anyone playing a cleric can just bypass the rules of the game? Do other players have anything similar?

 

[Crimson Longinus]

It's similar to ritual magic in Dungeon World - which is a derivation of a workshop ability in an Apocalypse World playbook - that amounts to the player saying what they want the magical ritual to do. The GM doesn't say, "Yes, here's all of it" nor does the player demand the outcome. The GM establishes the conditions or requirements that the player will need to make the ritual work as well as potential risks:

This is fine way to play and a fine rule for how magic works... for Dungeon World! But I think it is confused trying to port another divine favour system in D&D, on top of the already existing one, and it is even more questionable if one does in spur of a moment, so that the players were not aware of it when they made their characters and established the possible connections to the deities.

 

[TwoSix]

But do you really think it's a good idea that anyone playing a cleric can just bypass the rules of the game? Do other players have anything similar?

Me personally? I'll let anyone try pretty much anything as long as it makes some kind of sense in our story.